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If you were around int eh U.S. in the '70s and '80s all the gynocologists were setting up "birth control clinics" (abortion clinics). It was a time when abortions were happening very frequently and without remorse. So I would say the analogy did fit. Times have changed here since and younger people have been raised differently and with more sense of responsibility regarding sexual acitivities and control. so tht analogy I made should only apply to an earlier period.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 11:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Times have changed here since and younger people have been raised differently and with more sense of responsibility regarding sexual acitivities and control.

I don't think the statistics of teenage sex, in the USA bear your argument out.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 12:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The key word here is "responsibility" and support for that are the continuing declines in abortions.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 12:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But all the figures i've seen tend to show that the decline in abortions is mainly occurring in the areas of the states which are supposedly the least moral, and the teenage pregnancy and abortion rate is highest in the most religious areas.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's hear it for Abstinence Only programs!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently teenage girls who signed so called "abstinence pledges" are far more likely to have oral or anal sex than their "slutty" non-pledgee sisters (source).  Oh well, back to the drawing board!

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to remember seeing figures that there was no statistically significant difference in the incedence of STDs between people who had taken the abstinence pledge and those who hadn't as well.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No-sex programs 'not working' says the BBC.

I'm not sure why the scare quotes are there. It's obvious that the programs that are 'not working' are really just not working.

There was a superb diary on dKos earlier in the year from a gynecologist explaining why he was happy to perform abortions. It was one of the clearest and most moving pro-abortion pieces I've ever read, and made the point that sometimes it's for very real health reasons - pregnancy can be fatal, after all - and sometimes for quality of life reasons.

I don't think abortion should be casual, but I think it should be available on demand.

And I'm always baffled by the clear association that seems to exist between those who want to 'defend life' before birth and then treat life with contempt after it.

I'm not suggesting BJG is in that group, but it's hard to ignore the correlation in much of the rest of the US.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 05:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by william f harrison

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 24th, 2007 at 01:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this being the BBC they have to be clear even in headlines that they are quoting someone, and it's shorter than adding a "says ..." or "studies show". (Or even "area man".)

Looking at other posts in this thread, perhaps we could be calling them


  • "No"-sex programs

  • No-"sex" programs


etc.

-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Fri Aug 24th, 2007 at 05:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which just goes to show that the best way to reduce the number of abortions is sex ed in school and easy access to contraceptives (including the morning-after pill).

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
WHAT!!! then people might start having sex for fun, and outside marriage, and then, sin of sins women might actually enjoy it and that would never do. </snark>

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd hate to make comparisons to female genital mutilation or forcing women to wear burkas (particularly as someone (no, not the ET member of the same name!) is bound to misunderstand what I'm saying), but ultimately it all boils down to the same kind of thinking, doesn't it?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 01:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes it does.

When Gudrun Schyman, party leader for the left party tried to express this in a speach 2002, it was instantly converted to "all men are taliban" in the media. So you are probably right in your parenthesis too.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 02:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well in any sane society if you had what was in effect a parasite growing inside you that had a chance of killing you during its attempts to exit your body, then it would be considered self defence.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 at 02:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BJ Lange: "abortions were happening very frequently and without remorse." How could you or anyone else know they were "without remorse"? If you had any eveidence at all for this claim you should have cited it. Stated like this it's just arrogant dogma.

And yes, people can poke fun at your son, or at anything else. It won't kill him, and you and he will be more mature if you learn to accept fun, even jeers, without throwing a hissy fit.


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Aug 26th, 2007 at 04:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and without remorse

What? You've got statistics on their emotional state as well and they all decided to check

Remorse? NO

Is that right? Please provide a little evidence.

I know. You can't. You can't because this is certainly unsupported by anything approaching scientific research, not to mention common sense.  Having helped a few ladies walk to clinics in my time (and I'll happily do it again) the misery the US pro-life crowd --people with attitudes exactly like yours--have inflicted on these girls is reprehensible.  When  the pro life couldn't beat laws into submissions in the US, they just start breaking the laws, threatening the girls and threatening the abortions performers. "Pro Life" indeed. Bombing clinics, murdering doctors and in general creating their own little reign of terror for those who didn't buy into your pathetically paternalistic attitude about WHO gets to decide whether or not to have a baby is exactly why these things have happened.

You might feel you have some claim to decide about this yourself--and you do--legally, when you are the person carrying the baby. Otherwise, you have no legal right to intimidate or force the issue for someone else, and your emotional tone now vis a vis the 'remorseless' quip--as if you'd know-- reeks of something from the time of the inquisitions. Or, more precisly, reeks of a generally misogynistic attitude. Especially when coupled with your previous comment upthread that suggested the girls were doing it merely as "a matter of convenience". I wear a rubber for convenience. Am I also 'remorseless' and 'a baby killer'? Or does that only fall to the individual who must support another life for nine months, and significantly alter their own lives because some male decided not to be inconvenienced with birth control because 'it wasn't up to him'? So we punish her, right? And call her 'remorseless'. Prostitutes are treated with the same level of respect-- the Johns are never busted, but the hooker goes to jail. (As far as I know Sweden is the only country that flips this general 'rule' on its head, busting the John and letting the prostitute go...oh, yeah, and it works). But I guess you want to apply the same old set of inequities we use here for prostitution to baby making? Wow, that's fair.

Why don't you wrap your head around another much more serious societal problem rather then your fantasy about what the girls might be feeling? You know, like population control. Like the fact that we've reached 6.6 billion and counting and getting a handle on taking care of everyone we've got here now, not making sure we keep reproducing more and more, might be the more intelligent--not to mention  more humane--thing to be concerned about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

by delicatemonster (delicatemons@delicatemonster.com) on Sun Aug 26th, 2007 at 07:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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