Display:
are you actually going to post every day on astrology in the hope that you will actually be censored, and then clamour that you are a victim?

Just for the record, the topic annoys me. The fact that, since I mentioned that, you have latched onto the topic repeatedly, with no content whatsover beyond saying "astrology", suggests that you are doing this specifically to annoy me. This, in turn, points that you purposedly want to be disruptive and disrespectful of me and of this site.

Therefore your complaints about the site, and specifically about the supposed lack of respect you are shown, are just a big farce.

Feel free to continue to make a fool of yourself. You mostly amuse me, now.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, I am not, but the topic of power spots came up, so I thought I would mention it.  I find it kind of interesting and wondered if people were interested in the topic.  that's it.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are a tease, Mmmmm....

If Solveig let on that she were a Virgo smoker, she would be in deep, deep, trouble......
;-)

To me, the evening thread is when we can lighten up and have a laugh: f..k knows why I just put in a serious post - I guess it's just that people have got tired of my Diaries...


"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, what is a Virgo smoker?
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A Virgo who smokes...cigarettes...! <hiding>...
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
okay, that's what I thought but I still don't understand.  

anyway, there's been lots of interesting news lately.  I heard the Russians are thinking of moving their nuclear missiles back into Belarus.  

by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there's a lot of smoke going on around nuclear deployments right now. I'd agree that Bush has got a lot of people worried, we all know he and Cheney really are mad enough...so there's a lot of pretending to rattle sabres that are probably not as battle worthy as they like to pretend they are.

Frankly, if the ex-soviet submarine fleet is anything to go by, I'm not sure the Russian nuclear missile fleet is in any fit state to move, let alone fly.

Still, they can say they're going to Belarus....

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've worked with a lot of engineers who loved Russian engineering, and I tend to agree.  Their mechanical engineering is excellent.  Their electrical engineering, not so good.

Their aeronautical designs are also very, very good.  A lot of aeronautical equations are named after Russians, and a lot of numerical analysis techniques as well.  

They may not have had the money to do maintenance, but their mechanical design is built to last, baby.  

The most brilliant engineers I have worked with are Russians and Germans.  And, a lot of Polish engineers I have worked with have stated the same thing, surprisingly.  

So, I wouldn't discount them yet.  

by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what would you rather do:

  •  take a Soyuz rocket to the International Space Station

  •  take the Space Shuttle to the ISS
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Going there or coming back?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
both.  remember that O ring failure for Columbia?
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean Challenger?

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
right.  I have my exploding Space Shuttles mixed up.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:18:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I may have mentioned before that I used to know someone who was contracting on one of the iterations of the ISS.

I thought it would be fun to suggest that she'd like a ride on the Shuttle for a birthday present.

She said "Are you crazy? You'd never get me into that thing. I've seen the plans."

New Scientist had a feature about fifteen years ago quantifying the risk of the shuttle program and predicting that there would be 2-3 catastrophic failures.

No one paid any attention. But still.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I worked on software on the ISS
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
on the ISS or for the ISS? ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it predict the ISS's position from zodiac signs? ;-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well as long as it uses a compatible zodiac

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 06:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
come now, how unscientific can you be?  the horoscopes we have are for earth-based creatures ;-)
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 06:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of my favourite space quotes is this one

"It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract."

-- Alan Shepherd

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I'm a Fire sign who DOESN'T smoke....

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you guys are getting me into even more trouble
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's this about Virgo smokers?  Not that I know of any.  Thank God.  But what's the going punishment for that these days?  In case I run into one, so I can warn them, you know.  Decapitation by windmill blade?  Or does J just nag them till they slit their wrists?  Should they flee the country?  Anyone offering asylum to the refugees of Jerome's tyranny?  What's expected in return for harboring such a criminal?  I don't have a lot of money but I can dance.  Not that I'd ever have to worry about that, of course...  <<cough, cough ... hack...>>

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Solveig is laughing so hard she can't even see the keyboard....

And how Headmaster J can possibly worry about astrology when his entire class are smoking behind the toilets while chanting eye eye, ai ai, aye aye, ey aye addio or whatever, defeats me...

Where's Deputy Head Migeru when he's needed to restore order....

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chris, Jerome's not worried about astrology, he's irritated by stupid attention-seeking people like mmmm - the kind of person who rushes to be the first to announce that Castro is dead on the basis of a rumour in a night-club, then tries to blame the Cuban government - on the basis of that unimpeachable source, Bush and co. Then tries various implausible theories to deny the obvious.

The kind of person who says we can speculate about anything, but when one speculates about their motives in trying to blame the Cuban government, gets upset.

The kind of person who thinks it's "inspiring" to inform us that they have perfect pitch - hard work to achieve some difficult goal is inspiring, not a natural talent.

The kind of person who thinks it is cute to go on about astrology in the hope of annoying others and getting censored so they can seem to be a victim. But Jerome was too kind - I don't find it amusing, it's just rather sad.

By the way Chris, YOU might see the open thread as a welcome opportunity to "lighten up" and I'm sure you were making an effort to lighten up the atmosphere with your comments. That's fine and clearly many others feel like you, but some of us also enjoy serious discussion and don't appreciate time-wasters like mmmm (see this thread) - and I hope Jerome and Migeru will continue to be critical of people like that.

Oh, and I'm sorry that you feel your diaries don't get the attention they deserve - a lot of us feel like that :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 06:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I haven't got tired of your diaries. It's just that like a lot of Jerome's, I don't have the background to do anything other than read them and go "oh !!"

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more graphs. I mean, unfortunately, there are many numbskulls out there like me who thrive on visuals. So when you are discussing your pithy topics, throw in some graphs and photos, and then you got our curiosity. It works. Ask Jeromë!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But for the love of god don't ask him using that misplaced umlaut!  

Then again, I could use some company in whatever work camp I'm about to be shipped off to...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh God, watch out.  I once wrote Jèrôme instead of Jérôme and had to see a therapist because of the response I got from J.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then you shouldn't ever attempt to write my real name...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have accents in my name as well but it doesn't upset me if someone makes a mistake.  At least they tried.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For me, it is a mis-spelling, which smacks of lack of attention. Though the fact that in Hungarian, letters with accents are counted as separate letters in their own right, might enhance the matter. So unlike Jérôme, I also dislike when my name is written with all accents left off. (Then again, many people from Hungary aren't bothered by that.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in French, it's common to leave off the accents if the typewriter or software doesn't allow it, and people can still read it.  Not when writing ba hand, however.

How about Spanish or Italian?  anyone know?

by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in French, changing accents would rarely lead to a word with a different meaning. But, say, vall means 'testifies', váll means 'shoulder', szóló is 'solo' while szőlő is grape, int is '[s/he] winks' while ínt is the accusative case of 'tendon'.

Leaving off German Umlauts is not a good idea either (konnte-könnte).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sort of like a change of tone in Chinese then
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:54:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Sort of like the difference between an a and an o.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I just thought of the worst example: hat is already an isomorphism, as it can both be 'six' and '[s/he] effects [something]'; while hát is another isomorphism, between 'back' and c. 'well then' -- leave off accents, and it's a four times isomorphism!

I note that in ASCII times, computer-Hungarian was rather cumbersome and looked like this: ko:szo:no:m, szo"lo", ha't.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DôDò?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that's just silly.

-- ÑöŗďîĉŠŧǿřm

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
for the love of god
+
What's that suppose to mean?  This is a secular site.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you know the old saying, "there are no atheists in online communities primarily dedicated to European politics". Or something like that, I might have gotten a word or two wrong...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought it was "online communities dedicated to alternative energy sources"
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I am an atheist.  It's a commonly used emphatic phrase where I'm from.  In fact, during one point in my life I was forced to qualify any discussion of negative scenarios with that damn phrase.  Old habits...

Plus, I'm on a roll with the rule breaking.  Hoping he will just skip the punishment and go for instantaneous death.  Hm.  Maybe I'll get the "guilletine."  he he he...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, we have another culture here...


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may be serious for a moment, I have been meaning to write something about this.  A French national, who apprently is also a US citizen, murdered a man in Chicago.  He confessed to French authorities, but France won't extradite him.  Does this have anything to do with the death penalty?  Illinois has a moratorium on the death penalty.  Why won't they allow him to be tried here where he was living and where he killed the guy?  

Here's the story:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-cornbleet29aug29,1,6080226.story

It's very confusing to me...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the European Convention on Human Rights might preclude extradition to a country where someone could face what certain dead white Smerican men once called "cruel and unusual punishment".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like I said, there is currently no death penalty in IL.  I see little sign of the moratorium ever being lifted.  He would get something like life in prison if found guilty.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that moratorium mean it is not executed, or that it cannot be handed out as judgement? And how easily can that moratorium be lifted (e.g. by governors' decree or something more serious)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't know if they can hand out the sentence.  I know the last Gov., a Republican, commuted the sentences of everyone on Death Row at the time.  I don't know if anyone has been given that sentence since.  Surely more heinous crimes have been committed.  

I think it is the State Legislature that must overturn the moratorium.  I've not heard many calls for it.  The Gov. who imposed it did so because a slew of people on Death Row were proven innocent or did not get fair hearings.  So he said, no death penalthy until we can insure no innocent people are put to death.  Which is an impossible standard and in effect abolishing the dealth penalty without having public support to do so.  

I suppose it could be brought back, depending on the circumstances.  But I think there is a lot of death/outrage fatigue in the country at the moment.    

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say that probably, while that statute is stilll on the books, even if it's not being used, and even if there has been a moratorium against it being used, then you would still be classed as a state that has the death penalty. It wouldn't be unreasonable for his lawyers to argue thata future govoner could decide that the moratorium should end and so he is at risk. I think it is a general point of principal to not extradite in cases where the death penalty is a possibillity. Although I think that in some cases extradition has been agreed when the local prosecution has agreed to wave the death penalty.

The other possible reasonis that it may say in the French constityution that citizens cannot be extradfited to third party states under certain conditions. As An example of something like this look at Ronnie Biggs one of the UK's great train robbers. He fled to Brazil, and managed to avoid extradition for 16 years as  he had fathered a Brazilian child, and under Brazilian law, he had to remain in Brazil to pay for the childs upkeep.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 09:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been problems here with extraditions to the US for assorted crimes on the basis of both the death penalty and the inhumane conditions that people would be held in in the US - though I'm not sure that the last excuse held up.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 31st, 2007 at 05:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could a federal death penalty statute come into play?

Anyway, if we are to believe the claims in the article, they just don't extradite French nationals, period.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I was just wondering why.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When was the last time the US extradited one of its own citizens?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't the UK tried recently to extradite a British citizen to the US for hacking military servers?

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yea, we do whatever the overlords ask of us without let or hindrance.

We are papthetic little adjunct state, our loyalty never even remarked upon because it's never been questioned.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't there a group of bankers too?

Wouldn't it be interesting if BAe managers were extradited over that bribery scandal that was made to go away.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No idea.  But we just agreed to extradite Noriega to Paris when we're done punishing him.  Which possibly violates the Geneva Conventions about handing off prisoners of war ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aCOmPSr4ctQk&refer=latin_america

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it dosn't that is covered by articles 82 and 115 of the third geneva convention

from Human rights watches press briefing on the Geneva conventions

POW status provides protection only for the act of taking up arms against opposing military forces, and if that is all a POW has done, then repatriation at the end of the conflict would be required. But as Article 82 of Third Geneva explains, POW status does not protect detainees from criminal offenses that are applicable to the detaining powers' soldiers as well. That is, if appropriate evidence can be collected, the United States would be perfectly entitled to charge the Guantanamo detainees with war crimes, crimes against humanity, or other violations of U.S. criminal law, whether or not they have POW status. As Article 115 of the Third Geneva Convention explains, POWs detained in connection with criminal prosecutions are entitled to be repatriated only "if the Detaining Power [that is, the United States] consents."


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 09:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if they were going to try him in a federal court, and it doesn't seem like there are any grounds to do that.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Simple answer; the existing treaties between France and the USA do not allow extradition of own citizens (works both ways). This is a legal matter I do not the details of but I think the Russians had a simular case lately with the UK.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
from the article :


Either way, if Peterson ever left French soil, the U.S. then could arrest Peterson and prosecute him in Illinois, without risking double jeopardy protection, he contended.

Yeah, sure, after Guantanamo, it is clear the US has the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, except in France.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 08:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yer don't know yer umlauts from your circonflexes!

Social death.

"Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what are they called in English?  in German, they are umlauts, in French, trémas, and in English?

the New Yorker magazine uses them a lot; they spell coöperate instead of cooperate.  

by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dieresis?

Strictly speaking, a pair of dots is an Umlaut only if it changes the quality of a vowel. In Latin languages it is used to break a dypthong so they are not Umlauts.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. The Swedish/Finnish letters "Ä" and "Ö" are distinct, separate letters, and not considered variants of "A" and "O", so not umlauts either.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I would disagree on that, at least for Swedish.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Historically you might be right, but certainly in the modern Swedish alphabet they're distinct letters.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where are they alphabetised?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They're the second-to-last and last letter, respectively.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting, didn't knew. For comparison, here is the 'long alphabet' from Hungarian:

a á b c cs d dz dzs e é f g gy h i í j k l ly m n ny o ó ö ő p q r s sz t ty u ú ü ű v w x y z zs

(The 'short alphabet' excludes the rare so-called multiple letters dz and dzs; as well as q, w, x, y: those feature only in imported words/names.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
does Hungarian resemble any other language?
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's related to Finnish and Estonian (all three being fenno-ugric languages), but they're not that similar.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Closest are the other two languages in the Ugric branch, Khanti and Mansi, but those are far enough too. Of course, written language is much younger than the branching-apart.

I note all but 3-4 of the vocals corresponding to the 43 letters exist in French or English. And the very first, denoted with a, I know to exist in only one other language: German, but German-speakers trying to pronounce a Hungarian a don't realise until one points them out.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and where are they spoken?
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here. Wiki is your friend.

The various Finno-Ugric languages of the Finnish branch live from the Urals to Finland in the North of Russia. I note some Ukrainian nationalists want to deny that Russians are 'true' Slaws on the basis that Moscow's missionaries Christianised a lot of Finno-Ugric people and  the populations merged... with present-day Udmurt etc. speaking populations as mere left-overs. No idea if there is any quantitative data on the mixing and on the modern 'Russian' gene pool, tough.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The alphabeth the way I was taught it:

a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v x y z å ä ö

You might notice that "w" is absent, but we actually dropped it long before bush became president.

I believe the finnish alphabeth is written the same way but å is prounanced "ruotsalainen o", that is "swedish o". So swedish/finnish alphabeth is quite right.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 07:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I first met with the usage -- where else -- reading a story about someone's Christmas memory of a freight train steaming up the Upper Coös River...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how about Nöel in English, isn't that how it's spelled?
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Far as I know Noel is spelt without the accent in English. English doesn't have any accents, so any word absorbed into the language has accents stripped from it.

We use context to separate Noel (name) from Noel (crimble greeting)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hmmm, how about the New Yorker magazine's spelling then?  cöoperate, etc.
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They're probably having a bit of fun. Like metal bands who throw in a few dots purely for decorative purposes, like Mötley Crüe or Motörhead or Queensrÿche...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, they do it quite a bit, and they only do it with words that would really require it, like cooperate.  no other words come to mind at the moment, but it's not like it's not a serious magazine.  a lot of great writers wrote for the New Yorker magazine.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I've found the answer: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~laurel/misc/CoopSpelling.html

Another more archaic option dispenses with the hyphen question altogether and employs the umlaut convention common in Germanic languages where a vowel following another vowel influences the pronunciation of the second vowel. Thus the words above become coöperation, coöperative, coöp, and coöper. However, this is convention is generally not used today.


"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would guess that this spelling probably went out of fasion in 1914 or 1940 (judging by This you might have had the same mentality at work).

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Recommended reading: Wikipedia: Diaeresis.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:44:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the pedantic spelling is coöperate.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So is it the same system as in Dutch, where you put the dots ("trema") to mark vowels that are pronounced separate? (My favorite word at the moment: zeeëend)

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:41:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. This would be the third comment of mine in this tread where I drop the name diæresis for that phenomenon.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What, like, you mean when you put dots over letters and stuff?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, like, only when you, like, do it to, like, separate a dypthong into, like, two wowels.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's, like, totally awesome, such as. But, like, I'm ain't not wearing a diphthong this time of year, it's way cold, like.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In American typographical use, not British.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, I'd only ever write it as co-operate. The umlaut is only used by rock bands for some faux-gothic feel. Strange that poncy american mags and heavy metal bands are united in pretention, but hey, there ya go. :-))

In all cases, assume that in a dispute between american and english, the american use is wrong. ;-))))

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought you guys were the ponces
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen it both with and without, but then again most of the times I saw it with had been victorian/edwardian church music, so that may be a special case.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If that is in the lyrics of songs, it would be used to emphasize the fact that a two-vowel combination is supposed to be sung as two syllables rather than one dypthong. You would tend to see dots used in poetry when the syllabization is non-standard in order for a line to scan.

Recently I was recalling a Spanish verse that goes Qué descansada vida la del que huye del mundanal ruïdo... where ruido s correctly pronounced as rUI-dO but the poet needs three syllables to preserve the meter and so he forces rU-Ï-dO which is signalled in writing by using a dieresis. This is from the 16th century, when the preservation of meter was foremost in poetry. Nowadays, with free verse, people don't bother with meter and so they don't have a need to do violence to words with dieresis.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is most strongly in my memory on the front cover of pieces of music with the titles in a gothic  script, whether the decoration continues over to the actual text inside is another matter, and I am dredging it up from in the region of thirty years ago so I can't be entirely sure.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Authors gives Noël for the name in English, as in French.

It gives diaraesis for the typographical sign ¨

directing the second of two vowels to be pronounced separately, as in naïve
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I always think it's funny that being a native French speaker makes me better in English than the English ;-)
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I always think it's funny that being a native French speaker makes me better in English than the English ;-)
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Le fait d'être bilingue donne-t-il le hoquet? ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:11:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
dict.leo.org calls them umlauts in english too.  
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that a religious gesture?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:08:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it got there as a typo on a non-German keyboard used with German special characters shortcuts.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:18:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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