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What's that suppose to mean?  This is a secular site.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 01:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you know the old saying, "there are no atheists in online communities primarily dedicated to European politics". Or something like that, I might have gotten a word or two wrong...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought it was "online communities dedicated to alternative energy sources"
by zoe on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I am an atheist.  It's a commonly used emphatic phrase where I'm from.  In fact, during one point in my life I was forced to qualify any discussion of negative scenarios with that damn phrase.  Old habits...

Plus, I'm on a roll with the rule breaking.  Hoping he will just skip the punishment and go for instantaneous death.  Hm.  Maybe I'll get the "guilletine."  he he he...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, we have another culture here...


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may be serious for a moment, I have been meaning to write something about this.  A French national, who apprently is also a US citizen, murdered a man in Chicago.  He confessed to French authorities, but France won't extradite him.  Does this have anything to do with the death penalty?  Illinois has a moratorium on the death penalty.  Why won't they allow him to be tried here where he was living and where he killed the guy?  

Here's the story:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-cornbleet29aug29,1,6080226.story

It's very confusing to me...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 02:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the European Convention on Human Rights might preclude extradition to a country where someone could face what certain dead white Smerican men once called "cruel and unusual punishment".

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like I said, there is currently no death penalty in IL.  I see little sign of the moratorium ever being lifted.  He would get something like life in prison if found guilty.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that moratorium mean it is not executed, or that it cannot be handed out as judgement? And how easily can that moratorium be lifted (e.g. by governors' decree or something more serious)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't know if they can hand out the sentence.  I know the last Gov., a Republican, commuted the sentences of everyone on Death Row at the time.  I don't know if anyone has been given that sentence since.  Surely more heinous crimes have been committed.  

I think it is the State Legislature that must overturn the moratorium.  I've not heard many calls for it.  The Gov. who imposed it did so because a slew of people on Death Row were proven innocent or did not get fair hearings.  So he said, no death penalthy until we can insure no innocent people are put to death.  Which is an impossible standard and in effect abolishing the dealth penalty without having public support to do so.  

I suppose it could be brought back, depending on the circumstances.  But I think there is a lot of death/outrage fatigue in the country at the moment.    

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say that probably, while that statute is stilll on the books, even if it's not being used, and even if there has been a moratorium against it being used, then you would still be classed as a state that has the death penalty. It wouldn't be unreasonable for his lawyers to argue thata future govoner could decide that the moratorium should end and so he is at risk. I think it is a general point of principal to not extradite in cases where the death penalty is a possibillity. Although I think that in some cases extradition has been agreed when the local prosecution has agreed to wave the death penalty.

The other possible reasonis that it may say in the French constityution that citizens cannot be extradfited to third party states under certain conditions. As An example of something like this look at Ronnie Biggs one of the UK's great train robbers. He fled to Brazil, and managed to avoid extradition for 16 years as  he had fathered a Brazilian child, and under Brazilian law, he had to remain in Brazil to pay for the childs upkeep.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 09:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been problems here with extraditions to the US for assorted crimes on the basis of both the death penalty and the inhumane conditions that people would be held in in the US - though I'm not sure that the last excuse held up.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 31st, 2007 at 05:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could a federal death penalty statute come into play?

Anyway, if we are to believe the claims in the article, they just don't extradite French nationals, period.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I was just wondering why.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When was the last time the US extradited one of its own citizens?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't the UK tried recently to extradite a British citizen to the US for hacking military servers?

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yea, we do whatever the overlords ask of us without let or hindrance.

We are papthetic little adjunct state, our loyalty never even remarked upon because it's never been questioned.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't there a group of bankers too?

Wouldn't it be interesting if BAe managers were extradited over that bribery scandal that was made to go away.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 05:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No idea.  But we just agreed to extradite Noriega to Paris when we're done punishing him.  Which possibly violates the Geneva Conventions about handing off prisoners of war ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aCOmPSr4ctQk&refer=latin_america

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 04:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it dosn't that is covered by articles 82 and 115 of the third geneva convention

from Human rights watches press briefing on the Geneva conventions

POW status provides protection only for the act of taking up arms against opposing military forces, and if that is all a POW has done, then repatriation at the end of the conflict would be required. But as Article 82 of Third Geneva explains, POW status does not protect detainees from criminal offenses that are applicable to the detaining powers' soldiers as well. That is, if appropriate evidence can be collected, the United States would be perfectly entitled to charge the Guantanamo detainees with war crimes, crimes against humanity, or other violations of U.S. criminal law, whether or not they have POW status. As Article 115 of the Third Geneva Convention explains, POWs detained in connection with criminal prosecutions are entitled to be repatriated only "if the Detaining Power [that is, the United States] consents."


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 09:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if they were going to try him in a federal court, and it doesn't seem like there are any grounds to do that.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Simple answer; the existing treaties between France and the USA do not allow extradition of own citizens (works both ways). This is a legal matter I do not the details of but I think the Russians had a simular case lately with the UK.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 03:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
from the article :


Either way, if Peterson ever left French soil, the U.S. then could arrest Peterson and prosecute him in Illinois, without risking double jeopardy protection, he contended.

Yeah, sure, after Guantanamo, it is clear the US has the right to arrest anyone, anywhere, except in France.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 at 08:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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