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EU Commission President Ruffles German Feathers with Critique | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 08.10.2007
An interview with the head of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, set sparks flying in Germany after he criticized Berlin's EU policy and overall attitude to Europe in what some called an election ploy.

Barroso's comments were a "provocation" which "amazed" diplomats in Brussels, Germany's Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ) wrote in its Monday edition.

 

On Saturday, Belgian newspaper De Standaard published a wide- ranging interview with Barroso in which the head of the European Union's executive arm first said he "got along well" with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and then accused Germany of "contradictory" behavior towards the EU.

 

Germany "pulled Europe out of the crisis over the Reform Treaty, so it has no need to catch up" with the rest of the union, European parliamentarian Elmar Brok told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAS) in an implicit rejection of Barroso's comments.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe if Germany dropped its plans to extend the limitation on the free movement of people beyond 2009 it would be less open to charges of inconsistency.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what is the substance of Barroso's criticism?
Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions," Barroso said in an unusually direct statement.

In addition, Germany's apparent reluctance to support reforms to the EU's energy market and to divert unused agricultural funds to pay for the Galileo satellite-navigation system is "worrying," he added.

Brok, however, said Berlin was ready to invest money in European ventures but wanted to make sure its interests -- and those of German companies -- "are taken into account in an appropriate manner," the FAS reported.



We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions," Barroso said in an unusually direct statement.

Subsidiarity is suppsoed to be one of the favorite arguments of the neo-liberals... Have they gotten to enjoy the powers that the French and Germans have fought so far against them to endow the Commission?


In addition, Germany's apparent reluctance to support reforms to the EU's energy market and to divert unused agricultural funds to pay for the Galileo satellite-navigation system is "worrying," he added.

Yeah, there's no reason to oppose the energy reform apart from being a bad European. And no reason to oppose discreet attempt to discreetly empty the CAP of its substance by pilfering its budget for unrelated purposes. Bad, bad Germany. Bad Europeans.


Brok, however, said Berlin was ready to invest money in European ventures but wanted to make sure its interests -- and those of German companies -- "are taken into account in an appropriate manner," the FAS reported.

The gall.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions,"

there are very real issues about democratic accountability. It is all very well for people to say that reform will happen after the fact, but there are a lot of people who, having grown suspicious of unaccountable bureaucratic institutions in their own countries, are not willing to concede a lack of accountability to some group even more remote. the secrecy of the EU is notorious, their obstruction of any basic request for information legendary.

The germans are right, even if for the wrong reasons.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am, however, irked by people who insist the answer is to "repatriate competences", while admitting "it has been notoriously difficult to find competences to repatriate". Maybe if, after much searching, none have been found, it could just be that the EU really is not overstepping the limits of "subsidiarity". After all, the EU only has the powers that all the EU member states can agree to give it, and second of all in countries that are more centralised (such as France and the UK) it is the EU that is pushing for more regional policies. The EU's committee of the regions was spearheaded by Germany on behalf of its Länder 15 years ago (and, ironically, was almost derailed by Catalonia's Jordi Pujol insisting that it become a Second chamber when the EP didn't even have the legislative powers it has today).

So Germany is not even contradicting itself here.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the secrecy of the EU is notorious, their obstruction of any basic request for information legendary.

The EU bureaucracy is one of the most open, accessible and transparent. This above is just a Murdoch talking point.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the secrecy of the Council of Ministers is very real.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be a nice thing, for sure, for such things to be public, but does it happen anywhere on the planet? Is it even realistic to happen?

No commercial negotiation, just like no political negotiation, can be expected to be fully public. No Cabinet meeting can seriously be expected to be fully public.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:25:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you're right about that. But nevertheless things like register of members' interest should be online. Such things are the basic building blocks of open government. Their absence, indeed any attempt to hinder access is a direct obsruction of democratic accountability and is indicative of the centre's intentions.

There are numerous examples, a Channel 4 programme a couple of years back exemplified how difficult, or often impossible, it was for ordinary citizens to obtain information directly relevant to their lives.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:39:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be ok if it was purely an executive body: that the legislative function is also carried out in public is not acceptable.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:40:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even the MEPs are frustrated with the Council. They say the can work with the Commission, but the Council is just difficult and secretive.

Not to speak of the way they enter into secret deals with the commission to introduce legislation that would be politically unpopular at home. And let's not forget about commitology.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was waiting for that word to show up, or else I had to dig through the diaries for the reminder. In all fairness, I think there's also a plus side to commitology - as Ignasi Guardans flags halfway in his article. The technocratic element is useful - but it should always, always be transparent and put to vote independently by MEPs. As so often is commiserated on ET: the EU is not democratic enough.
by Nomad on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 10:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's more democractic and open than any national government, so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm....

I would argue that governments in all the Nordic countries are more democratic and open than the EU.  

Many Norwegians who voted against joining the EU did so because the EU system is not democratic enough.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's fair enough, but 1) what would make it more democratic? 2) how do you get there from here?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is something I have never thought about - certainly not in detail. To me, the EU seems like a 'heavy machine', that is difficult to turn or change.  It will certainly take much effort and time.

Personally, I do not believe that another layer of 'government' (which the EU is) is a good thing - it causes growth in bureaucracy, and the danger of even more top down decision making. For a small, democratic country like Norway (some say over-democratic), that prospect is not tempting, as the latest polls on EU membership shows.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.

Obviously nobody has bothered to dispel the Eurosceptic fearmongering in the Norwegian press either.

How, pray tell, does Norway suggest to tackle global warming and international law without supranational organizations?

What other supranational organization has a parliament directly elected by proportional representation and with the power to veto legislation and hold the organization's officials to account, and ombudsman, and a court of justice that every citizen of a member state can appeal to?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Obviously nobody has bothered to dispel the Eurosceptic fearmongering in the Norwegian press either.

I do not think there has been much Eurosceptic fearmongering, actually.  It has been more about real issues that are important to Norwegians: fisheries, land ownership, agricultural issues, equality (gender), etc., etc. We would have had to give up too much control with full membership.

EU membership is, as far as I can judge, a non-issue in the Norwegian press these days. What we do see, after the EEA agreement was signed, is how much we have to 'toe the Eu line' - on many 'weird and wonderful' EU policies/regulations, without being members.

Migeru:

How, pray tell, does Norway suggest to tackle global warming and international law without supranational organizations?

Norwegians have always been 'internationalist' and work within almost every international organisation you could mention (UN's first Secretary General was Norwegian, and the Brundtland Report has its name from our first female PM).  

There are great debates these days on global warming and environmental issues.  This is a process which has been going on for a long time, and the Norwegians are not behind the EU, as far as I can judge. And they work with the EU and many other organisations on these issues.  

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think there has been much Eurosceptic fearmongering, actually.
Then where do the false statements about the EU that you made in your previous comment come from?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which false statements?
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I suppose I read intoSolveig:
To me, the EU seems like a 'heavy machine', that is difficult to turn or change.
a claim that the EU is a bureaucratic mammoth of an organisation, which is why I replied

Migeru:

The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.
I guess I should ask you on what you base your perception that the EU is a "heavy machine", any more than, say, the UN.

I guess what makes the UN more attractive than the EU in the eyes of the Norwegians is, then, that the UN is toothless and demands no concessions as a condition of membership, while the EU demands legal changes on accession and in the future, as agreed collectively?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:17:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
I guess I should ask you on what you base your perception that the EU is a "heavy machine", any more than, say, the UN.

I dislike any large bureaucracy. They tend to take on a 'life of their own'.  UN is as bureaucratic as the EU, I'm sure.

Migeru:

I guess what makes the UN more attractive than the EU in the eyes of the Norwegians is, then, that the UN is toothless and demands no concessions as a condition of membership, while the EU demands legal changes on accession and in the future, as agreed collectively?

I guess that is partly true.  Norwegians are fiercely independent. Giving up hard won freedom (to join any organisation)is not something we would do lightly. We prefer cross border co-operation on an equal basis, I suppose.
       

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dislike any large bureaucracy. They tend to take on a 'life of their own'.  UN is as bureaucratic as the EU, I'm sure.
I don't know how to measure the "bureaucraticness" of an organisation, but I have already in this thread addressed the claim that the EU is a large bureaucracy.
Migeru:
The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.
Of course, given Norway's size, it is possible that the EU budget is comparable to Norway's GDP, and Amsterdam's population is a sizeable fraction of Norway's population, so it's all relative.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This OECD report should give you some figures:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/33/20213253.pdf

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me add that I don't think there's any need for, say, Norway or Switzerland to join the EU. As long as you're in the EEA you enjoy mutual rights to free movement of persons, capital, goods, and services. So, other than the requirement to extend voting rights in local elections to EU citizens, there's little difference to individuals' ordinary lives between being in the EU or outside it but in the EEA.

And we're all in the Council of Europe anyway, so the same minimum standard applies on Human Rights issues.

My position is tending towards making it explicit that the EU is a political project, and having Eurosceptic countries butt out to the EEA.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
My position is tending towards making it explicit that the EU is a political project

What really worries me is when there is talk about a future EU army and common foreign policy.  

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you are fine with Norway being in NATO.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine?  
10 days ago, the top General in the Norwegian army more or less said we were 'on our own' now, since NATO forces are too busy all over the world - fighting 'terrorism'.
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU membership is, as far as I can judge, a non-issue in the Norwegian press these days. What we do see, after the EEA agreement was signed, is how much we have to 'toe the Eu line' - on many 'weird and wonderful' EU policies/regulations, without being members.
That's what happens when you're a 4M people country joining a 400M people market. You have to play by the rules of the market. If you joined the EU you'd get to set the rules of the market.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We would not have the chance of 'setting rules', even if we were members, in my opinion.  It is not 1 vote per country, is it?  The big nations set the rules, the others must 'grin and bear it'.  
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now we get into the vagaries of qualified majorities in the European Council. However, in general small countries are, in fact, overrepresented in the EU institutions in terms of both voting weights in the Council and number of MEPs and commissioners.

Voting in the Council of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Treaty of Nice (current)
  • To pass: Majority of countries (50% or 67%) and votes (74%) and population (62%)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved

This is the currently applicable voting system. According to the procedure, each member state has a fixed number of votes. The number allocated to each country is roughly determined by its population (see table on the right), but progressively weighted in favor of smaller countries. To pass a vote, both of the following conditions must apply to establish qualified majority voting (QMV) - the bloc's key way of decision-making in the absence of a consensus:

  • the proposal must be backed by a majority of member states (or two thirds in certain cases: see below);
  • the proposal must be supported by 255 votes from a total of 345 -- about 73.9% of the votes.

Furthermore, a member may[1] request the verification of the population condition (which is then also required for the resolution to be adopted):

  • the countries supporting the proposal must represent at least 62% of the total EU population.

The population requirement is almost always already implied by the condition on the number of votes. The rare exceptions to this happen in certain cases when a proposal is backed by exactly two of the five most populous member states but not including Germany, that is, two of France, UK, Italy and Spain, and by all or nearly all of the 22 other members.

Furthermore, when the European Council is not acting on a proposal of the Commission, the qualified majority requires backing by two thirds (rather than a simple majority) of the member states[2].

Note that mechanisms by which the Commission makes a proposal may not require weighted votes. For example, the Anti-Dumping Advisory Committee (ADAC) can approve a proposal to impose tariffs based on a simple, unweighted majority. Since this simple majority vote leads to a Commission proposal to the Council, the simple majority effectively requires a qualified majority to overturn it (because overturning the recommendation of the ADAC means voting against a Commission proposal). This greatly increases the power of small member states in such circumstances.

The declarations of the conference which adopted the treaty of Nice contained contradictory statements concerning qualified majority voting (QMV) after the enlargement of the European Union to 25 and 27 members: one declaration[3] specified that the qualifying majority of votes would increase to a maximum of 73.4%, contradicting another declaration[4] which specified a qualifying majority of 258 votes (74.78%) after enlargement to 27 countries. But the treaties of accession following the Treaty of Nice clarified the actual required majority.

[edit] Reform Treaty (proposed)

  • To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) and population (65%)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved and at least 4 countries against the proposal

The Constitution envisaged the "double majority" system for the QMV which according to some countries better reflects the true size of populations and at the same time acknowledges the smaller member states' fears of being overruled by the larger countries. The reform treaty has adopted this method. The second condition of at least 4 countries against the proposal is to ensure that the most populous Member States cannot block decisions and is important in 10 different voting scenarios where legislation requiring QMV can be passed although the population requirement isn't fullfilled and all member states except:

Germany and France and one of UK, Italy, Spain or Poland
Germany and UK and one of Italy, Spain or Poland
Germany and Italy and one of Spain or Poland
France and UK and Italy

are for the proposal. In practice one has to take into account the political likelihood for each minority.

[edit] Penrose method (proposed)

  • To pass: Majority of votes (61.4 %)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved

Poland proposed the Penrose method (colloquially called the "square root" system) which would narrow the weighting of votes between the largest and smallest countries in terms of population. The Czech Republic supported this method to an extent, but has warned it would not back a Polish veto on this matter. All the other states remained opposed.[5] After previously refusing to discuss the issue, the German government agreed to include it for discussion at the June council.[6]. The given percentage is the game theoretical optimal threshold.[7]

See also the nice table comparing voting weights with population for all member states. The breakpoint currently happens betwen Spain and Poland. Countries no larger than Poland have more votes than would correspond by population, and countries no smaller than Spain have fewer votes.

Now, as we know the number of votes is not a reliable measure of the amount of power a voting block holds, but that is another story.

Banzhaf power index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Banzhaf power index, named after John F. Banzhaf III (though originally invented by Penrose (1946)), is a power index defined by the probability of changing an outcome of a vote where voting rights are not necessarily equally divided among the voters or shareholders.

To calculate the power of a voter using the Banzhaf index, list all the winning coalitions, then count the critical voters. A critical voter is a voter who, if he changed his vote from yes to no, would cause the measure to fail. A voter's power is measured as the fraction of all swing votes that he could cast.

The index is also known as the Banzhaf-Coleman index. See History.



We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops...what have I started...by a simple comment!  I need time to digest this.  

First reaction: even with voting weights in favour of the smaller nations, I still cannot see that it can ever be a 'fair' vote for them within the EU system.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "a fair voting system".

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One country - One vote?
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With what kind of majority required to make decisions?

Note that this only applies to the Council, though, not to the Parliament.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Off the top of my head: a simple majority would do.  

These are 'problems' i have never contemplated to be honest...

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that entirely undemocratic? Why should the representative of 3 million people have the same vote as the representative of 40 million?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:55:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see your point.  This is one of the problems with the EU, in my opinion - it seems impossible for a small nation to have any real influence. So staying outside may be the best option...      

By the way, Norway's population is over 4.5 million - and estimated to grow to 5 million by 2030.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The whole point of qualified majority voting is that it's a compromise between the small nations - who form a large group in Council and the large ones to balance their power, as does the veto power. Blocking legislation is much easier than forcing through unpopular legislation since to pass it you need both a majority of states and a majority of population while to stop it you just need either a majority of states or a majority of population. Small nations have more than their fair share of blocking power, strictly speaking.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Veto and blocking power...is that not just a waste of time?        
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 09:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not true. Any national government is subject to stronger accountability to the national legislature than the Commission or Council are to the European Parliament.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But (in theory, at least) one already elected the national government to defend one's interests on the European level and they are already accountable to the national legislature. It's a difficult question whether a "democratic deficit" even exists.
I think the new treaty will solve some of the problems by making the codecision procedure the standard.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you enjoy playing devil's advocate to all of us, but still, this is simply untrue.

The Council is accountability incarnate - directly to each government, which is present in the Council, gets to vote on its decisions, and is the legitimate representative of the various countries, being fully accountable at home (don't blame Europe if that last point is not perfect).

The EuroParliament adds another layer of accountability, one less imbibed with feelings of nationality. Even if the EP does not have full pwoers over the Commission, it now has quite a bit, which makes the Commission MORE accountable, not less.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't evade the issue. I said the Council is not accountable to the EP. I did not say the Council is not accountable to the national governments, and I did not say the Commission is not accountable to the EP.

Besides, it is well known that the national governments use the lack of transparency in the Council to propose unpupular policies which can then conveniently be blamed "on Brussels" when the domestic populations protest over them.

Of all the EU institutions, the Council of Ministers is the one in direst need of reform, to make it more open.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
was long seen as a form of "Senate" for theEU. Why should it be accountable to the EP?

And my point is that the EU institutions are accountable. The Council's voting rules are known, so if people believe it when their governments balme things on "Brussels", they are just badly informed. But what else is new.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Council doesn't operate as a legislative body. It's an intergovernmental council and it invokes executive privilege to keep its proceedings secret.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have 2 parts:

Openness:
The EU is less open then the Swedish government in terms of handing out information. The journalists unions paper Journalisten showed that rather clearly in 1996. An english article on the subject.

Democracy:
The last swedish government used EU to push through stuff like the data retention directive which they in all probability deemed that they could not pass through parliament without claiming that "Brussels makes us do it". The problem in parliament would be the utter lack of support in the population. Therefore the swedish system of making laws is more democratic then the EU level.

Thus, I would claim that

Still
it's more democractic and open than any national government, so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

is false.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Therefore the swedish system of making laws is more democratic then the EU level.

I fail to see how you conclude that. All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Why are people always blaming Europe for their failings? "Because it's convenient" sounds like a pretty good answer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ASKOD is describing a standard procedure used by all national governments to take unpopular proposals to the Council to be able to "blame Brussels". If the Council were not opaque, this would not be possible.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
butthe Council rules are known. So any Council decision included a vote by the relevant government - or, more usually, a unanimous decision (after a shadow vote was taken)

What prevents people in each country from holdingtheir government accountable for decisions in the Council to which they are a party? If there is any lack of accountability, it is at the national level, not at the European one.

Again, that governments promote ignorance about the EU to hide behind the Council is not a valid excuse.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Council secrecy is absolutely not funny. It has consequences for airline passenger data, the CIA prison/flight scandal, is at the root of most of our headaches with the treaties...

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the subject line was meant to be only "I know", but got autofilled while I wasn't looking....

As to your wider point. I'm partisan, as you know, of making EU decisions subject to much stronger control by the Europarliament (thus my support for the Constitution, as an additional step in that direction)

I fail to see how Council transparency to the wider public would help much of anything. Negotiations will take place elsewhere if you impose cameras and the like, and Council meetings will become big pointless PR meetings.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not only about council transparency to the wider public. It's about council transparency to even the national parliaments.

But, in fact, since in parliamentary systems there is effectively no separation between legislative and executive, as the executive comes out of the legislative and controls the parliamentary majority, to expect national parliaments to hold their own governments to account over their participation in the EU Council is like demanding a game of good cop-bad cop.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:16:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fail to see how you conclude that. All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Now we are getting to the core of the matter. Essentially what I do is compare how the democracy is working now compared with before the EU membership. I get that is not how you want to compare, so exactly how do you define national government in contrast to the EU? Keeping in mind that you wanted to compare them in the first place.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:28:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Thinking about how it is browbeaten reveals something.

Without the EU level:
government proposes legislation -> parliament votes it down -> life goes on

(Swedish governments are often minority governments and can loose votes, as long as it is not budget votes or something critical like that)

With the EU level:
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> [lots of steps within the EU...] -> directive comes to Swedish parliament -> parliament votes it down -> Sweden gets sued before the EU court -> Swedish parliament eventually accepts or leave EU

OR
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> parliament holds vote of no confidence -> government falls -> possibly new elections

In essence:
EU membership has in Sweden passed legislative powers from parliament to the executive government, and this is due to the rules and the power of the Council.

If the Council is to work like a senate it should have senators that are either elected by the people or elected by the parliaments. Mixing in the executive governments as the strongest part of an EU-level legislative process shifts power nationally to executive governments, weakening what checks existed on the national level. And that is not a good thing.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, this is the first clear explanation of why the new treaty will give the National Parliament the possibility of having input into the codecision process.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With the EU level:
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> [lots of steps within the EU...] -> directive comes to Swedish parliament ...

...

Mixing in the executive governments as the strongest part of an EU-level legislative process shifts power nationally to executive governments, weakening what checks existed on the national level.

This is inaccurate. First of all, the Council is not the strongest part of the EU legislative process, nor does it propose legislation. Legislative initiative is with the European Commission.

What national governments do is introduce amendments to proposed directives during the codecision process (subject to European Parliament approval), and (in secret and behind the scenes) collude with one another and with the Commission to have new directives or regulations introduced that would be unpopular at home.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clearing that out for me.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 05:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If the Council is to work like a senate it should have senators that are either elected by the people or elected by the parliaments.

But that's the case!!! Your 'senator' is your Prime Minister (or President), duly elected by the people or the parliament of your country.

If most legislation applicable in our countries is decided in Brussels, then the behavior of your representative in Brussels should be the single most important thing you vote on. If you don't, again, it's your democratic process that's flawed, not the Council.

This has been the case for decades. Why are people always pretending to discover how Europe works?!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the case!!! Your 'senator' is your Prime Minister (or President), duly elected by the people or the parliament of your country.

I should have stated that I wanted it seperate from executive. That was the whole point of the post. Afaik there is no way a member country can choose to be represented by specially elected senators and not their executive in the Council. If there are I would be interested in finding it out.

If most legislation applicable in our countries is decided in Brussels, then the behavior of your representative in Brussels should be the single most important thing you vote on.

It is not that most legislation goes through Brussels, it is that what can not be passed otherwise goes through Brussels. It is small amount in comparision, but very important.

If you don't, again, it's your democratic process that's flawed, not the Council.

If the EU structure shifts power from legislative to executive within the member countries, there is a problem with the whole structure (EU and national level alike). You could argue that the most efficient way of fixing it is at national level in each country. I would probably not agree, but it is an argument that could be made.

Again, you wanted to compare national and EU level, thus I compared Sweden with and without the EU level. If that is not the comparision you wanted, you have to explain to me what you are comparing because I do not get it.

Why are people always pretending to discover how Europe works?!

Because we are. The post you answered to was the first time I sorted out what the effects of the EU membership are on the swedish legislative process. And I think the general point stands even with Migerus corrections.

I think the interesting question would be: Why do not even educadeted interested citizens know how the EU works?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the Council as "senate", it is not dissimilar to the German Bundesrat, and nobody in Germany seems to complain that the Bundesrat is undemocratic and unfair towards the Laender.

Bundesrat of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The composition of the Bundesrat is different from other legislative bodies representing states (such as the Russian Federation Council or the U.S. Senate). First, its members are not elected, neither by popular vote nor by the state parliaments, but are normally members of the state cabinets[1] which appoint them and can remove them at any time. Normally, a state delegation is headed by the respective minister-president. Second, the states are not represented by an equal number of delegates, since the population of the respective state is a factor, as the following table shows.


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is interesting.

Could you move it to the new thread (top of frontpage right now)? I will give it an attempt to figure out the difference (if there is one to be found).

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you make it a diary? I'm off to a job interview.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome has already made us a new thread were I have moved a corrected version of my argument.

If you are of I can always cut in your question with my answer (when I have written one).

Good luck btw!

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

So criticism is only acceptable if your national government is better? That I consider unacceptable. :-)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just that it's hypocritical.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If your national government is undemocratic it should be criticised in its own right, but criticising one does not mean not criticising the other. Otherwise you end up where you can not criticise the US in Iraq before you pacified Darfur.

And considering it, if your national government is less democratic, then you have less possibility in influencing it (as it does not care about its demos). So putting (assuming citizen in EU member state) your efforts where they have maximised effect means trying to change the EU. Which can take the form of criticism.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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