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The question is - is that tension a structural part of the relationship, or it is caused (or, lesser version, exacerbated) by the current ideology of domination of Capital described below?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 11:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Capital is just another tribal domination game.

On the surface it relies on a unique narrative and a unique form of accounting, but in fact it's a very old-fashioned kind of empire acting in very old-fashioned ways.

The practical difference is based on clever technology, and there are also some hesitant and very limited steps towards humanitarianism - although they're very local and contingent, and the current US administration is working hard to eliminate them.

Aside from that, ideologically it might as well be Rome.

Rome imploded under the weight of its own corruption. It couldn't afford to keep or train an effective military, and it was eaten alive by neighbouring tribes.

I think we can nearly take a US implosion as a given now. So the question isn't so much whether the EU can split successfully, as whether or not it's juicy enough a prize to be worth picking up afterwards.

I don't think it is. Russia and China have enough people and enough resources not to need more. Don't forget Europe is almost entirely reliant on external energy supplies. That on its own makes it strategically vulnerable.

If times become hard Russia and China may feel like starting a war for political reasons. But I'm not sure it's worth anyone's while to annexe Europe when natural resources here are so limited, and the population would need so much 're-education' to become useful.

So as things are now, divorce is the wrong question. The divorce will happen anyway when the dominant party expires.

After that, Europe's long term survival prospects as a bloc are not good. If the US collapses, Europe is likely to be left to rot because its only real wealth is cultural and historical - and that counts for very little when resources are limited.

Which means that the smart thing to do now is to start planning for a post-US world where trade and economics are very much less important than they are today, and basic farming and energy self-sufficiency are very much more so.

I'm not expecting anyone to actually do this, even though it makes sense whatever happens next - and it may be the only way to salvage anything at all here after a crash.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 12:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's always darkest

Before the dawn

Well, maybe not always!


I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Capital is just another tribal domination game.
On the surface it relies on a unique narrative and a unique form of accounting, but in fact it's a very old-fashioned kind of empire acting in very old-fashioned ways.

I've been reading for classes, and one of the more interesting ideas that I've encountered recently is the idea that the current international system in some sense represents the global diffusion of the utlitarian value system across the globe.

Now if you are a good utilitarian, you have an indivualist ontology.  Which is to say that the value that you place on items is entirely your own, value is no affected by social interaction.  Let's call this the income narrative.  In this instance, the amount of income that others posses is of no concern to you.  So long as the amount of income that you receive increases, the distribution of income is not important.

This defies common sense.  Anyone who's been a teenager knows that consumption is largely socially driven.  That is to say that value is not internally determined, but instead the origin of preferences lies in socialization into one's peer group.  And value isn't indivualized, it's socialized.  Wealth becomes a zero-sum game, because the relative distribution of wealth rather than the absolute quantity present in a society is what matters.  And individuals will willingly destroy societal wealth (including the portion they own) in order to create a more even distribution of wealth in society.  Wealth derives its importance not from the individual utility, but from the social status it grants.  

Consider now what this means for the global distribution of wealth, and the prospects for conflict as that changes..........

We matter more than pounds and pence/ Your economic theory makes no sense "We work the Black Seam"-Sting
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 02:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"if you are a good utilitarian, you have an indivualist ontology"

That is to say, "if you are a typical, debased utilitarian (simplistic, and blind even to your own values)..."
-------------

I prefer to attack bad ideas on their own terms when possible: This bypasses a layer of intellectual armor and concentrates fire on a soft spot. For example:

Genuine "utility" corresponds to what people actually value, which includes a more than just money and what it can buy. Confused utilitarians, out to maximize wealth instead of utility, are simply wrong by their own standards. What people actually value includes their relationships, the well-being of others, and a lot more.

So, no need to attack utilitarianism or self-interest here; we can save that effort for another war. (Hmmm... If people  understood the reality of the hedonic treadmill, then what?)

</ favorite-topic>

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 06:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those annoying basement-dwelling Randians would probably disagree with you.

It's a key element in this Economic Madness that all utility must be measured in monetary terms to the maximum extent possible, and all relationships must be commodified.

Of course this is nuts, and it's at the core of our pathology.

But while that minor detail is sorting itself out in a collision with the real world, we're left with the fact that it's a rare neoliberal who can accept that monetary utility isn't the ultimate measure of everything that matters, and that the magic of the markets creates more utility for everyone.

(Or at least, for everyone who matters.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 07:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Utility and efficiency are hugely important, but there is no reason to divorce either from a humane context. It is in fact our main conflict with the neo-liberal/neo-conservative bloc (no need to differentiate, as far as I can tell). In this regard we are very close to the "true conservatives" in that we all share a moral vision of behavior and value. As often pointed out, the main difference is the path - either more communitarian or more "individualistic".

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Sat Sep 29th, 2007 at 12:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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