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the Atlanticists' vision of the West - a narrow, militaristic, US-dominated, fearful block.

Can we perhaps distinguish between what is is and what it should/could be?

This discussion always makes me ambivalent.  On the one hand, as a US citizen, I'm appalled by and sick of the bullying domination of my country over the rest of the world, so I can appreciate that everyone outside the US would be even more hostile to it.  And they should be.  And I do believe the purpose of NATO in its current incarnation no longer reflects the reality of global politics and even stands in the way of the peace it is meant to ensure...

But if being an Atlanticist means believing in "cooperation among European and North American nations regarding political, economic, and defense issues," I would call myself an Atlanticist.

The fact is that we do share common interests.  That we do share a common culture in many respects, though culture is a fluid, evolving thing.  And what I do find worrisome is the notion that Atlanticism should be replaced with ... the word is not nationalism, because the EU is not a nation, but some kind of chauvinism.  I mean, if people are not willing to see that there is a wide gulf between pandering, submissiveness, poodletry and enmity, hostility, and isolationism, then they will never see progress.  That's the same trap Americans fall into.  You are either with us or with the terrorists.  What I sense here is a feeling that you are either with the EU or with the Atlanticists (with the same connotations).  Not only is that just untrue, but it is also just as unrealistic and out of touch with our political realities as NATO is.  

The answer to what is wrong with Atlanticism is a more independent, assertive Europe and a vocal acknowledgement that the axis of power and alliances have changed since 1949.  You can do these things and still accept that like it or not we have to work together because we share an ocean, much culture (the majority of Americans are of European descent, though that too is changing), and erm, a planet and the power to destroy it and each other.

I'm always for more cooperation, not less.  The problem with Atlanticism is that it's mistaken cooperation for some kind of messed up codependent relationship where Europe won't say no and America knows it.

So far as NATO goes, maybe after Iraq Europe will decide the US can't be of much help if the Russians do invade anyway...

Does the EU have a military that could defend itself?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 01:09:09 PM EST
Does the EU have a military that could defend itself?

It has many national militaries, and I think it is safe to assume it could defend Europe against anything external threath except the US military.

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by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 01:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there an EU version of NATO, an agreement that all other countries would come to the aid of a member country if it is attacked?  Or is it all on the honor system?  Might explain why some countries want to know the US has their backs...  (For the record, I don't really believe in war, nor do I see Estonia being invaded by Russia, but for the sake of argument...)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 01:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Western European Union (A military organization, not orignating in the EU.) This has largely been subsumed within the EU in recent years.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 02:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yeah, forgot about that one...

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 06:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Their is no formal agreement, no. Four EU countries (Sweden, Finland, Austria and Ireland) are formally military non-aligned. Checking it up, Malta and Cyprus are not in NATO either.

There are however military cooperation, mainly under the wings of NATO, and with the common economic borders and the (somewhat) common foreign policy leaving an attacked member in the lurch is not really an option.

If NATO was to disappear my guess is that a formal alliance would soon appear among the EU countries, within or without the structure of the EU.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 05:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
common economic borders and the (somewhat) common foreign policy leaving an attacked member in the lurch is not really an option.

So things have changed since 1938?  

(seriously, I'm no fan of NATO, but you have to see where this is going...)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 05:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, things has changed since 1938.

For example, say that Finland would be attacked. Finnish citizens has the right to move - to say Paris or London - within the EU framework. The finnish government would demand help in the council of ministers and finnish MEP would demand condemnation from the European parliament. While there is no formal military alliance having a member country conquered by a non-member would wreak havoc on the EU structure.

And EU has some of the strongest militaries in the world. In spending Britain and France regularly ends up on top five.

So the norwegian troops would have to be forced out of Finland.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 06:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thinking about it, Czechoslovakia had formal military alliances with France and USSR as well as guarantees from Britain. But it was traded in the great powers game.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 06:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems like defense is always best on an ad hoc basis. The standing armies always seem to be used for offense.
by bil on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 02:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, even against the US military.

If the Iraqis can resist, after all...

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 09:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU and US are both defenseless against the global grasshoppers who have groomed and harvested their leaders.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 09:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed,
and the military is useless against such attacks anyway.

Welcome back, btw. Been a while since I saw your signature around here.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 09:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. I have been busy changing my act.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 10:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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