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Didn't get the freelance photo gig.

Or rather - did get the freelance photo gig, but was offered £30/page, including all photos and words, so walked away laughing at the stupidity of publishers.

I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't a start-up mag aimed at a rich audience.

I'm getting so, very, very exasperated with business types who want the moon on a stick but aren't prepared to pay a fair rate for it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 01:25:33 PM EST
I was offered that twenty years ago, without pictures!

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 01:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of my ex students, who has been very successful as a photographer, despairs of the business. He says he is being offered rates he got twenty years ago. One problem is that it has become one of the fashionable careers and newcomers will accept ridiculous rates to get started - but will then find they can't make a living over a career.

Don McCullin, one of the most famous British (oops he prefers English) photographers, made his name through war photography. He said that when he began you might get five photographers covering something in the same place. When he finished you could have five hundred turning up.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 03:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This relates to my comment a few days ago regarding membership of the NUJ. If all freelance photographers, writers etc were members and stuck by the code of conduct and recommendations not to accept stupid rates, and to protect their copyright properly then media bosses wouldn't be able to get away with it.

But of course, 100% unionisation of any sector would be beyond my wildest dreams.

Those reasons are why photography is likely to remain a hobby (at most paying for the kit I have, over a number of years).

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 03:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, it's worth pointing out that the NUJ has been a historically very inept union when it comes to photographers:

  • Years of dithering over photographers who only do a bit of press work and mainly cover other kinds of work. (Missed out on a lot of joiners that way.)

  • A history of selling photogs down the river to protect writers jobs.

  • A large regional bias in favour of London based photogs in the past.

Sorry... old battle memories do tend to make for ranting...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 04:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know anything about the history of NUJ but I have had a colleague banging on at me to join if I start getting any commissioned work.  

It did strike me when I read the website that they are fairly powerless to do a great deal for photographers who work freelance and although they give recommendations on rates, they are fairly worthless if a large number of amateurs/enthusiasts sell their work for next to nothing and are ignorant about protecting their rights - just because it is nothing more than a hobby for them.

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if they could unionize everyone, there'd be nothing to stop companies from hiring only the non-union enthusiasts. (I'm pro-union, don't get me wrong.)
by lychee on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah true, but the strength of the unions would mean that those employers would be easier to challenge.  If only, hey?!

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 06:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of new year resolution is to avoid work for knock-down rates - something I've done rather too much of in the past. (Although not to this extent.)

Unionisation of freelancers is always very, very difficult to arrange. I'm sure a lot of photographers don't even realise the NUJ is relevant to them. And freelancers by nature are solitary. It's not like we'll be standing in picket lines, yelling 'scab' at people who are taking phone calls from editors.

I'm not sure what the solution is. (Actually I have an idea, but I'm still wondering how to implement it.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 04:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've also done a lot of work with BECTU who deal with freelance TV types, including make up, camerawork, a wide range.  Because so few are members of a union, if a member starts kicking off on terms and conditions (or the union on their behalf) they wind up getting blacklisted and can't find work again.  And the stupid hours that people are expected to work mean that there have to be choices made over whether to have a career or children, whether to have a life outside of work or not...

But it is an issue as to how unions can support freelancers, for all the reasons you mention and more.

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:09:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As you will be aware, it's difficult enough to unionise a  group who work together in the same building. Imagine trying to organize a group which ranges from people who hunt celebrities at night in the West End of London to ones who jet off to the other side of the globe if there's a rumour that conflict is about to begin and compete to get closest to the deadly action - often for peanuts - and resent the prices the paparazzi can get for celeb trivia.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 04:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hence why I said - in my wildest dreams. I've no idea how to make it work.

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Arse. That is obscene for them to offer that amount. You'd get far more than that writing a trashy piece for a  'My Story' section in a women's mag.  

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 01:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or rather - did get the freelance photo gig, but was offered £30/page, including all photos and words, so walked away laughing at the stupidity of publishers.

Ow.

Reminds me of the mag who wanted me to sell them 3 photos for less than 100 euros, and keep all the rights to the photos, also rights to use them anytime for any possible purpose without compensation or even notification.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 03:35:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SOP in publishing now. I regularly get work reprinted in EU and US editions. Only one magazine offers reprint rates - the rest assume you're working on assignment, and you have no rights. (Sic.)  
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 04:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yikes.  What a bummer!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 03:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't speak for photog or UK rates, but as another freelancer, gaah, you have my sympathy for being offered a bad rate. Another post (Ted, I think) noted someone being offered rates from 20 years ago, and I think it's because with all of the layoffs/outsourcing and competition for others now doing the same freelance work as you or anyone else here are trying to do, publishers think you should be desperate for work, thus they think they can get away with it.  

(Personal rant follows) I see crap like this, too. Some companies have truly small budgets; they are usually understanding if you won't accept their rates. But many others don't understand why they have to pay "reasonable" rates when they saw a flyer in the cafeteria from someone who'll edit text for $9/hr (that's an insulting rate), or why if you have your own recording equipment do you have to have separate fees for "talent" and "studio time." All you're doing is hitting the start-recording button, can't you include that in your talent fee? (Answer: NO.) Some websites have started up here in the last few years where companies place editing work offers on line and then ask for bids. I hate that. I hate the shark-pool environment, as if they can throw vague offers to us like chum and then sit back to watch the frenzy.</rant>

by lychee on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't write for less than 50 cents a word commercially. Look at Media Planet.

I think, if I recall correctly, they pay 125 € for a 1/4 page ( 1500 characters), 200€ for a full page, + 50 € for express delivery, interview expenses, per diems. mileage etc.

Even bog standard business translations run from 15 - 35 cents a word. For ad copy it can be up to 1.00 €

For photos we use the Gorilla price list (in Finnish, sorry)

as examples:

  • Culture magazine - printrun 5000 1 page 75€ (single use)
  • Newspaper - printrun 500,000 1/2 page 180 € (single use)


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.mediaplanetgroup.co.uk/

I am not recommending them, though I know writers who happily work for them and make a very decent living. The Media Planet MO is to tie editorial to advertising, so they sell prefinanced articles. Not my cup of tea.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty website but at least the uk Link off that map appears broken.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and it's local partners aren't a pile of progressive goodness

Partners - Mediaplanet

Local Partners
The Sun
The Sunday Times
The Times
The Telegraph
The Sunday Telegraph
Evening Standard
Mail on Sunday


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 05:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Their partners differ from country to country. I only know Funland.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 29th, 2008 at 06:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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