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... revolutionize the Fear/War/Empire locus as dramatically as most on ET would hope, but I seriously do think he can and will try to pull the Overton Window in the direction of reality.

Indeed, I wouldn't venture to say whether he would be doing so if reality was close to peaking through one edge of the frame, but given the current limits on the political discourse, and where he is standing, its to his advantage to shift it toward reality.

And I haven't seen even that much from either Senator Clinton or Obama ... both of them, for example, are on board for the expansion of the size of the Army and Marines, which is only required if the US is to be engaged "hot" occupations of the size of pre-surge Iraq for the indefinite future, while Edwards made the straightforward point that we should get out of Iraq first, before we look at long term force structure.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll go back to what I said at the start of this very long thread, some 12 hours ago: no one will have the power to make fundamental changes to the current political, economic, financial, military structures in the U.S., absent a massive train wreck in the U.S.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... that the movement conservatives wrought in America, in 1976. They didn't do it in one step, but in a series of efforts to budge the Overton window when it was a strain, and to move it as hard and as fast as they could when there was an opening. They took the festering through the middle of the American body politic and instead of treating the infection, harnessed the fever to their ends.

And now the opportunity is coming for a change election ... which is a substantially rarer thing in a Madisonian system than in a parliamentary system ... and the key is to get some effective movement back in the direction of reality. We have moved so far out into a narcissistic political fantasy that there is no hope of getting reality in the frame within eight years ... but unless we start making progress in the next eight years, there won't be anywhere near the same prospect of getting reality in the frame in the next thirty.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Bruce said.  

This is why Obama is so frustrating.  We've a once in a lifetime chance to really change the US political system and what do we get?

Kumbaya, My Lord.  Kumbaya.

"Can't we all get along in the most wonderful country with the most wonderful people, in the wonderfulmostest wonderification-ness of it all?"

Pardon me whilst I wonderfully goeth & barf.

by ATinNM on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't necessarily disagree with what you all are saying. But, in my opinion, change will only come with a major crisis, probably economic. Who would react the best from our point of view? Who can say? A minor or semi-major economic recession? Forget any change. We need 15 % unemployment and massive forclosures. God strike me dead for saying that!

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 05:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The major crisis is really just there to remind people that there's a thing called reality happening outside their teeeeveees, and reality doesn't give a crap what Rush or Coulter or even Olbermann thinks.

Unfortunately in a crisis people are more likely to retreat to simple-minded narratives than move towards nuance and sophistication. So without good leadership, a crisis will just edge the Overton window further in the direction of insanity.

Obama is not the leader to deal with a crisis. He's too cosseted, too secretively smug, too intellectual and too unimaginative to cope with reality. He likes the old narrative just fine and he doesn't have any plans to change it.

Imagine a Depression without a New Deal.

That's what's going to happen now. And it's going to breed monsters.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 10:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Name me one political leader in America that you would have confidence in to lead in the event of major crisis?
Name me one in the UK, France, Germany, etc. etc.
I always thought Gore but he's not shown up. In the event of a major crisis, I would probably have to go with the Clintons, as sick as I am of Bush-Clinton-Bush.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean he's not shown up in the event of a major crisis?



We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant to run for president in 2008.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 01:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:

Imagine a Depression without a New Deal.

That's what's going to happen now. And it's going to breed monsters.

Yikes!

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We fairly well know what the alternative to the New Deal looked like.

Business Plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Business Plot, the Plot Against FDR, or the White House Putsch, was a conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.

Details of the matter came to light when retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler testified before a Congressional committee that a group of men had attempted to recruit him to serve as the leader of a plot and to assume and wield power once the coup was successful. Butler testified before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in 1934 [1]. In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of several men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations on the existence of the plot,[2] but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten.

General Butler claimed that the American Liberty League was the primary means of funding the plot. The main backers were the Du Pont family, as well as leaders of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company. A BBC documentary claims Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected.[3]

End result: Fascism, american style.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 05:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... unless the ground work has been done and the foundation has been laid.

I guess what I am saying is that, yeah, sure, change dramatic enough to bring American within squinting distance of having any resemblance to our national mythos would require a massive shock.

But that's only necessary ... its not sufficient.

And there's no question in my mind that we already have the massive shocks lined up in the thirty years ahead, so what is really urgent is getting that groundwork done and getting the foundation laid. Otherwise we are heading even further into V is Vendetta terrain when a shock comes along that is even more traumatic in its impact than our month/year version of 9/11.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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