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Thanks for this DoDo. It has reminded me that Slovenia is the country my sister went biking through.  Her photos showed what a stunning country it is.  

I know far too little about the history and crisis surrounding Yugoslavia and everything that has settled (or not) out of that.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 12:51:47 PM EST
I'm actually wondering if it'd be a nice place to hike in... It's rather hard to know whether other countries have well maintained trails, lodges or camping grounds...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 01:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hiking & Trekking in Slovenia.
by lychee on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 02:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Slovenia is a fantastic place for hiking. Tons of trails,  well-maintained and well-marked, at least in the alpine areas, where there is also a dense network of alpine huts so you can easily hike from hut to hut (though it can be crowded on summer weekends). There are trails in other parts of the country as well, but they're not usually marked. I've lived here for 20 years, it's a walker's paradise. My dogs enjoy the trails, too.
by Jean (mccollisteratsioldotnet) on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 07:36:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Jean!  Welcome, or welcome back to ET!  Your perspective on Slovenia will be much appreciated.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 10:58:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks ! I always wondered about hiking there, I'll look into it. Any multi-day hike you'd particularly recommend ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 11:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends what kind of landscape you want to go through--how fit you are--how much elevation change you want--time of year--whether you want to stay up high and go hut to hut, or drop down into valleys and villages as well, and stay at inns/farm tourism places--feel free to email me direct for more information.
by Jean (mccollisteratsioldotnet) on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 04:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll do so when closer to planning time...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 07:06:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slovenia is the country least affected by the Yugoslavian troubles. It was first to secede, and after a 5-day showing the Yugoslav Army withdrew. There was no ethnic cleasing (nor large ethnic blocks to cleanse), and few reasons for strategic disputes. (Though beyond the small disputes relating to the Adriatic outlet, there were disputes with Croatia regarding a nuclear plant at the border.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 01:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They've still had their ethnic issues, though, with Roma (granted this goes on in many EU countries, not just Slovenia) and the "erased" Yugoslav citizens.

(Despite that, though, I have been really obsessed with Ljubljana for the past, oh, six months. Not Zagreb, or Dubrovnik, or Belgrade, or any other city where I might actually know some of the language or have friends. Don't know why. Thanks for the diary.)

by lychee on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 02:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ethnic issues, though, with Roma (granted this goes on in many EU countries, not just Slovenia)

Yes, the Strojan family's expulsion shows that Slovenia isn't without that racist ugliness either. I note though top-level action unlike in most of these other countries:

Saturday's events in Ambrus conserning Strojan Roma family « Borut Peterlin in a rabbit hole of photography

On_Saturday president Drnovšek tried to bring two trailers to Strojan family, but  Local people from Ambrus and Dečja vas made a barricade and even president Drnovšek was helpless. On the end Drnovšek left with words that their Christianity is only in their words and not at all in their actions. The record of this really shamefull event you can find it on RTV SLO 23.12.2006 on the news Dnevnik. Click on RTV SLO, then avdio/video, then arhiv, then Dnevnik and then find Dnevnik 23.12.2006.

[Read more on the Strojans' case here]

the "erased" Yugoslav citizens

Yes, should've mentioned that, though it compares more to the Czech stateless Roma situation than what Croatia et al did -- especially as the Slovenian version also hit primarily Roma people. But if the government changes this year, expect this to be solved: Borut Pahor vowed so, and I don't think the liberals would be opposed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 02:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kudos to Drnovsek for that Christianity remark, and before I go on, please let me make it clear that I know not all Slovenians wanted to remove the Strojans or deny residency to ex-Yu people.

it compares more to the Czech stateless Roma situation than what Croatia et al did

Oh, I didn't mean to say it was worse than the ethnic cleansing in other areas (didn't intend that, really). But it struck me as hypocritical as they moved toward the EU and emphasized how they avoided the bloodshed that occurred elsewhere. Yes, they avoided it, but they still ended up essentially trying to force non-Slovenians out. Like those who've been bullied will tell you, being totally ostracized is only slightly better than being punched in the gut.

But if the government changes this year, expect this to be solved: Borut Pahor vowed so, and I don't think the liberals would be opposed.

I hope it gets solved!!!!! I know that in the past there had been government intervention, but then citizens voted to deny residency rights (argh!). It's been a sore spot with me, because I too was proud of Slovenia for not descending into chaos, but then this happens.

Odd thought forming: As more of the ex-Yu republics join the EU, more will become eligible to eventually join the Schengen zone, meaning people would be able to travel between the republics like they did when they were all part of the same country. So after all the fighting, you could conceivably see them "rejoined" in a way....

by lychee on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 04:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See quote from the foreign minister in the diary text!

they still ended up essentially trying to force non-Slovenians out

Well, some non-Slovenians. Not that plain racism would be better (it's worse), but the situation of ethnic minorities other than Roma and Serb is much better than elsewhere. Say, language use in official situations, inluding village name tables in different languages has been an issue all across the region, even in Austria, but not in Slovenia.

On the referendum: I did remember the issue vaguely, but I was a bit incredulous and had to check. I find (1) the 3 April 2004 referendum was non-binding, (2) participation was a mere 31%, (3) that after opponents called for a boycott. (Still, sadly I suspect they could well have had a - narrow - majority had there been no boycott, I found reports of late 2003 - early 2004 polls on the issue.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 04:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never really understood boycotting elections and referendums, because if one entire side boycotts, the other side wins. Then whatever horrible law or corrupt official the boycott was in response to passes/gets in office. I can understand calling an election a farce, etc., but boycotts just seem pointless to me....
by lychee on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 05:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know Slovenian law, but referendums often have a validity threshold on participation. This can be 50%, 25%, 25% of total population for the winner, or something similar. (Notable exceptions are Ireland and Switzerland.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 05:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot: the EU referendum and the last elections saw turnouts just above 60%, compare 95% of 31% to that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 at 06:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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