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and it is of course, exactly because of these people (Dalferth being one not even extreme example) and their ability to discuss these things (only) in highly abstract language (his German is even better (-: ), that is part of the cause, why the discussion is being bypassed in the mainstream. Which is of course exactly the problem that Theologians then have with Darwkin.

You (maybe not you Colman, but you in general) say it is sophistication, they (we, I) say - we are only taking serious your questioning of our position, and that is the way we can make sense of it.

The next step then of your (generic) reply being "haeh?!?" would have to follow further explanation and only some are able to do so. (I only ever read Dalferth, never heard or spoke to him personally, so would not really know, what he is like in everyday language, but I would guess not very different...)

by PeWi on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 10:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It sounds to me like taking the most refined form of Zen Buddhism, which barely even qualifies as a religion as far as I can tell, and using it as the canonical example of religion. Theology is immaterial to most religious people.

Most people on this planet are worshipping a guy in the sky (or his representative) in the hope of an afterlife and other more immediate payback: that's the reality of religion for 5B people.

There have always been more sophisticated sub-cults within religions for those who find the folk version unacceptably simplistic.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 10:23:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My more complex answer (and refution of Zen, was lost, when my line manager appeared (ehem... - the disadvantages of doing this at work...)

from my conversations with "normal" people of faith, and the evaluation of countless of sociology of religion studies on this matter. the guy in the sky that is being worshiped is a far more complex beast than what you think. You disregard the complexities of faiths expressed and shown very easily by all the splits and differences in faith. (getting four different answers from three people f.e)

simply to say - ah Faithies just want their mobile phone in heaven (I actually heard that - about 15 years ago, how time flies...) and the seven virgins, (aeh damn translation error, it actually says raisins) is unacceptably simplistic.

If you want to be taken seriously by those +5B then putting them all in one pot is not conducive to that matter.

by PeWi on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 12:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't expect to be taken seriously by those 5B. I'll consider myself reasonably lucky if I can avoid burning at the stake or similar.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 08:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"There have always been more sophisticated sub-cults within religions for those who find the folk version unacceptably simplistic. "

Ah, and that group is actually much bigger, than you give it credit for. That group is also open to discussions on issues that R Dawrkin raises.

by PeWi on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 12:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most people on this planet are worshipping a guy in the sky (or his representative) in the hope of an afterlife and other more immediate payback: that's the reality of religion for 5B people.

Sweet Jesus!  That only applies to the Abrahamic religions AND NOT EVEN ALL OF THEM!  

So at the outset you are missing the majority of actual, practiced religion on this planet.  

This is kind of absurd, slopping, thinking by (SOME) atheists can only give atheism a bad name--not that I care ;)

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 at 06:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Given some of the crass, uninformed criticism of Dawkins and specifically of his "The God Delusion", a bit of hyperbole and sarcasm by Colman is excusable. Let's say - MANY people on the planet believe etc. That OK ?

Now, do you have any specific criticisms (with arguments and evidence - not just dismissals as in your other comment) of what Dawkins has actually written or said in the links in the Diary ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 08:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? Does it? I'm not referring to the high-falutin' theological version of religion as professed by the chattering classes. I mean the folk versions that are actually practised by the vast majority of people. I did contemplate adding something on the spirits living in rocks,or unquiet ancestors, but the sentence structure was degrading at that point.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 08:20:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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