Display:
I think the main implication of Incompleteness is that some truths are axiomatic and based in (horror...) subjective experience. They can't deduced because they're primary qualia.

Axioms can't be deduced because they're axiomatic.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But what makes them axiomatic?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Induction from experience.

Also, thinking again about subitizing, it is not only repeatable but also people can agree on the result. The qualia (what it feels like to subitize four as opposed to counting to four) is irrelevant to a large extent. It's just extremely interesting that we can subitize and it may even have linguistic implications for grammatical number, but just because your native language doesn't have counting numbers doesn't mean you can't learn them, and the possible connection between perception and grammar is not so surprising since both perception and grammar involve the same brain.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The qualium is the underlying experience of numberness and the very basic experience of abstraction of numberness from individual subitized items. Counting seems secondary here, but it's a way to recreate the experience using a primitive inductive method.

I'd be surprised if basic arithmetic - certainly addition, possibly subtraction, probably not anything more advanced - wasn't similarly rooted in experience.

But the basic point was that arithmetic is rooted in experience, and doesn't exist independently of it. Trying to prove it using formal logic makes for an interesting scenic trip, but eventually you end up standing over a hole which logic can't fill for you.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 08:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's basically what Lakoff and Núñez argue in Where Mathematics Comes From (which I highly recommend), which builds on the earlier Philosophy in the Flesh.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And what about idiot savants that have an intuitive grasp of arithmetic relationships and even calendric/numerical and numerical/calendic?
by ATinNM on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 08:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because you declare them to be axioms.

Axioms - to use the term strictly - establish the Rules of the Deductive Game you're playing, intellectually speaking.  Nothing prevents anyone else from declaring other axioms and playing other games.  This is exactly how non-Euclidean geometries is/are developed.  

Deductive Truth arises from the manipulation of the Terms and Operations, within the Axioms, of A Deductive System - as guided by the particular Interpretation of that system.  Even within the good old Categorical Logic there are two Interpretations: Aristotelean and Boolean.  

Verification of the results - the Truthyness of the Truth Value ;-) of a particular Axiomatic System - is a whole 'nuther topic.

 

by ATinNM on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series