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Challenged is fine. Government of the terms of response are not fine.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 04:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who does this "governing" - and how ? You are free to ignore responses and to respond to those you deem appropriate, state your reasons for feeling a response is inappropriate, etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 04:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not aware of censorship on this site. Banning does occur for ideological reasons on sites like dkos and red state. The worst case here is you get no response or a number of arguments against whatever thesis you put forth.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 04:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a great deal of censorship here - almost all of it self-imposed ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 05:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what is to be done about that. I do understand that Fran is frustrated and perhaps has had enough of how this site operates.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
slow down, and stop projecting things on me. I would like to see more women on the site, I would like to see more openness toward other ways of thinking, but that does no way mean that i had enough how this site operates. There is always place for improvements, however, that does not mean that what is, is bad.

And the purpose of my questions tonight was simply to get the women involved and find out how many women are currently participating. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 05:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And we ended up with a bunch of men debating...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 07:20:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... while the women became silent!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 01:38:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually a phenomenon I have observed repeatedly in groups, that often as men start 'debating' or 'take over' that women become silent and passiv. As soon as the men leave they become more lively again.

It can also be difficult for a female group leader to keep the men in place, and keep them from taking over - hard work, I can tell you! :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 01:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right, Fran, it's very difficult without having a committed group here for a period of time, but it is really important to bring it up.  I'd expect everyone to have some concern about how they contribute here.  

  1. We really want the male input without changing the subject, going on tangents, etc. and some have tried, but many clearly abstain.  There are different messages in that.

  2. This concerns us all and it's too much work for one person, or just one FP to run (+InWales, Migeru)
   A. LIVE BLOGGING A META SUBJECT
   B. DOING THE SALON
   C. Still having a life.

I hope we can continue to talk about this off hand and more members take time to comment.


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 05:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to be clear, my comment above was not about ET or the FP group, but groups I work with in my other life. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 05:36:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and thanks for the support. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 05:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not really. The most active women on the site all took part in the discussion. You just failed to get any other women to stop lurking. Maybe they didn't come out of lurking because the men jumped in first, but I don't know, they'd have to be the ones to say why.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 09:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just failed to get any other women to stop lurking.  

It should have been a ´group´ effort and Fran deserves credit for the all the time and effort, yet even regular male posters ´failed´ to join in.  Maybe because it´s Friday.  

Just because people are uncomfortable talking about social skills and want the rest to take behaviorist steps, doesn´t mean the effort isn´t  worth it, or isn´t necessary, or is a failure.  But it is thaat level of discomfort that can keep people away.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Metavision, you know as well as I do that in English 'to fail to do something' doesn't mean it's a failure, it's just that something didn't happen.

The sentence you quote is in response to Fran's claim that women became quiet at one point which isn't true, it's just that no women other than the usual participants joined the discussion. Regular male posters weren't asked to join in. Fran stated by asking women whose login names are not gendered to come forward.

I didn't say the effort was a failure or not worth it. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I thought I was the one who was uncomfortable talking about social skills and that doesn't keep me away.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This "regular male poster" has not contributed as Fran posted at the top of the thread [emphasis added]:

Could the women with names with do not obviously indicate their gender come out and declare themselves? it would be interesting to know.

Also if you do not join in regular discussions here, could you tell us why?

By that I assumed Fran was interesting in hearing from women who read, but do not contribute, to ET.  A class to which I am not a member.

I endorse, even applaud, Fran's effort and given the purpose - and problems - I felt the least I could do to 'further the Cause' was to Shut Up.

by ATinNM on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since you have the power to see such things - are people lurking?  Can you tell that?  Are we assuming something (women lurking) that might not even be correct?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 02:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would like to see more openness toward other ways of thinking

This has an implied general claim (i.e. it's not just a claim about YOUR experience) so a request for evidence is justified. What is the evidence that there is a significant general lack of openness towards "other ways of thinking" here ? - apart from the fact that YOU have got SOME negative responses to SOME comments/diaries ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 18th, 2008 at 07:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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