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I think the problem is that science often wants to establish one 'true' map for all and tends to exclude others that might be just as valid. By valid I mean producing helpful outcomes. As an example, Shamans migth have a map of reality that is at the opposite end, but works for them fine. But as it is such a different map it might not be or not easily verified by the map that is used for the scientific approach. I think most maps work well within themselves - but may not work if looked at from inside a different kind of map. For me subjectivity is looking at the world from inside a map, which to certain degrees we share with others, not just personal experiences. I even wonder if we can have an experience without a map of reality?!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 11:47:59 AM EST
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I even wonder if we can have an experience without a map of reality?!

No, we can't.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:55:09 AM EST
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On the other hand, I can certainly understand the frustration of - say - an oncologist when a patient with a perfectly curable tumour starts consulting shamans and witch doctors instead of undergoing surgery and radiation. Because the doctor knows perfectly well that shamans have much lower survival rates for most types of cancer than surgery and radiation.

But of course, measuring the value of a treatment in survival rates is a very Modern(TM) way of looking at the world, that may not be Helpful to the patient.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 07:08:45 AM EST
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If only it were so clear cut. Medical science is probably out on the edge of fuzzy effectiveness. Drug trials are so expensive they're rarely replicated properly and it's not unheard of for trials to be managed fraudulently.

New Scientist (where else?) had an interesting feature earlier in the year about the relative effectiveness of drugs, and how there's solid evidence that objectively influenced by the placebo effect and by the confidence of the patient in what is - often - as much a ritualistic activity as a scientific one. Doctors reliably hand out ineffective tablets and get positive results. How is that not voodoo?

So far as I know, shamanistic cures have only very rarely been studied objectively, so there's very little evidence for their effectiveness, or lack of it.

What passes for shamanism in the West is usually based on silly white people buying themselves a drum after a package holiday to Siberia or a weekend in a slightly remote part of Wales. I'd be surprised if it has much in common with the real thing, which - by all acounts - can kill you if you don't learn it properly, and will probably drive you mad even if you do.

The fact that frontline Western doctors (and vets) are very suicide prone is possibly just a coincidence.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 07:32:01 AM EST
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But in quite a few cases, it actually is that clear-cut. There are forms of cancer which are curable, full stop. Where the survival rates after proper treatment beginning sufficiently early approach 100 %, and where the survival rates of those forgoing treatment (or in places where treatment is unavailable) approach 0 %. Then you have a lot of cancers where the science is a lot more fuzzy. And then you have the ones where you're just Shit Outta Luck and even the best medical science can offer is only palliative.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 08:04:53 AM EST
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That doesn't change the fact that fuzzy things happen, and have been reported to happen objectively.

It's a continuum - not all of the action happens at either extreme.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 09:23:53 AM EST
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