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I interpret these two things to be broadly the same so I'm obviously not following your logic.

Your diary does not contain woo-woo that I can see. Refer to the Crackpot Index.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ok. We've been working with different understandings of woo-woo, possibly. I guess I would expect many people to disregard my own experience as woo-woo and write it off or tell me I am wrong about it all.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a pathological syndrome in science where self-styled authorities write off unusual experiences and events as scientifically impossible by definition, and then proceed to heap personal scorn and bile on anyone who so much as dares mention them.

That's usually called scientism, and it's - not helpful. Although unfortunately it's not uncommon.

The problem is that the cranks and kooks who like to live on the fringes are often so ridiculous that there's so much noise that any signal becomes buried. Between authoritarian scientism on one hand, way out woo-woo watchers on the other, and the occasional deliberate fraudster, it gets to be very messy.

Fraud in science isn't actually all that uncommon. There have been studies of both graduate and post-grad papers, and falsified, or at least massaged, results aren't all that rare.

That's why reproducibility is so important. If one person says something, you can take their point or leave it. If the same thing happens to a hundred people, it's much more likely to be worth paying attention to.

The problem with so-called woo-woo is that it's not very lab friendly. And because of scientism, even when evidence piles up it's not accepted, and no one is interested in trying to reproduce it because it's a sure way to end your career.

It's not just woo-woo which suffers from the same problem. Science is fanatically political, and becoming more so, and that has blunted its effectiveness over the last few decades.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Part of the problem is the amount of loons who insist on sending their crazy to scientists. The maths department I studied in used to get a fair amount of crazies sending their newest wonderful discovery to them, and they're a small school with no-one famous - I assume famous scientists get lots of crap sent to them. Cranks are apparently annoying when they insist on bothering you with their stuff.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 10:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A professor I know answered every crazy proposal for a new wonderous machine within his field of work with "Sorry, but for legal reasons I will not look at your blueprints until they are patented". Apparently, that worked in most cases.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Physics professor to secretary: "Why do you keep giving my e-mail to all these perpetual motion machine loons?"

Secretary: "Oh, I don't. I split them evenly across the department."

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:37:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the concept I was talking about...

It was brilliant, and still is :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:24:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But they can't as they don't know, can't know even, anything about your experience since all there is to discuss is your self-reporting. Now if you had made cosmological claims on the basis of your experience we'd be talking about woo-woo.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But we'd learn something important if the cosmological (well, maybe just cosmic) claims were sufficiently detailed and corresponded to scientific knowledge gained later.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the woo-woo overton window is sliding open!

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 01:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is that intended to mean?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not much, just being silly and glib, a fault o' mine.

(that the spontaneous nature of blogging stimulates, unfortunately!)

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 02:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oops i sent colman's reply to mig and vice versa.

to mig:

playing with metaphor, the overton window signifying the common wisdom, the fact that an economy/energy blog should even bother to comment on diaries like these, and the surge of interest from women as well as men when they occur, all suggest a shift, from where i stand... also peoples' attitudes to these phenomena seem a tad less judgmental than last winter, when similar discussions led to bad blood.

so it is amazing, but not how you meant, i think...

i do have a record of misunderstanding you sometimes, so excuse me if i inadvertently pushed your buttons there.

;)

~"When an inner situation is not made conscious, it appears outside as fate." Karl Jung~

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 02:19:34 PM EST
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I find it nothing short of amazing that in response to your comment above about "liberation" I argued that stepping outside scientific "constraints" is not "liberating" in the sense that it requires you to exercise more and not less critical thought, as well as a discussion of the difference between reported experience and woo-woo, and your conclusion is that "the woo-woo overton window is widening".


A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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