'Traction' is not the first that comes to mind.
Interesting to note that you speak of 'we'. As if posters who responded here have important common characteristics.
In previous postings, here and elsewhere I did get the impression there were a sort of band of posters scannen the blog, spotting rich grounds (privileged ones / victims) to, ehh, play.
To address your remark regarding track: I don't see how the postings relate to the point I tried to raise.
Which is: going from tabloid to esoteric, how do make progress in awareness, regarding issues commonly experienced as pressing by multitudes at the receiving end of business as usual (greed, ignorance, malice)
And after awareness: how do we operationalize the goodwill that emerges when we become aware?
See also http://solveclimate.com/blog/20081027/t-boone-pickens-selling-some-wind-turbines#comment-572
It's just a jokey reference to the ubiquity of the word in the endless US election coverage.
As far as I'm concerned, they just have in common that they contributed to the discussion here.
Or take up issues which they find interesting/important, which may not be seen as central by the author of the diary and, as in any group, some are more active in contributing than others.
To address your remark regarding track: I don't see how the postings relate to the point I tried to raise. Which is: going from tabloid to esoteric, [other way round ?] how do make progress in awareness, regarding issues commonly experienced as pressing by multitudes at the receiving end of business as usual (greed, ignorance, malice) And after awareness: how do we operationalize the goodwill that emerges when we become aware?
Which is: going from tabloid to esoteric, [other way round ?] how do make progress in awareness, regarding issues commonly experienced as pressing by multitudes at the receiving end of business as usual (greed, ignorance, malice)
Speaking just for myself, I responded to your reference to Foucault, which seemed quite central to your approach, given the extensive quotation and implicit acceptance of his approach:
I would like to take this quote from the Foucault entry at Wikipedia a step further ...
I said that I preferred Chomsky's general approach and illustrated the difference by reference to their debate. As it happened the discussion here then focused on the particular issue about justice, rather than the general difference between their approaches.
In the latter case I think Chomsy provides a very clear example of how to answer your general question, i.e. there is no mystery about it, one develops awareness in a variety of ways, which includes writing books and articles, and in Chomsky's case giving many, very well attended talks, which address issues which have a major impact on people's lives, and present readily understandable critiques of misleading media coverage. Here is Chomsky's own discussion of the contrast between his own approach and that of Foucault:
Phetland suggests starting with Foucault --- who, as I've written repeatedly, is somewhat apart from the others,[Derrida, Lacan, Lyotard, Kristeva, etc.] for two reasons: I find at least some of what he writes intelligible, though generally not very interesting; second, he was not personally disengaged and did not restrict himself to interactions with others within the same highly privileged elite circles. Phetland then does exactly what I requested: he gives some illustrations of why he thinks Foucault's work is important. That's exactly the right way to proceed, and I think it helps understand why I take such a "dismissive" attitude towards all of this --- in fact, pay no attention to it. What Phetland describes, accurately I'm sure, seems to me unimportant, because everyone always knew it --- apart from details of social and intellectual history, and about these, I'd suggest caution... But let's put aside the other historical work, and turn to the "theoretical constructs" and the explanations: that there has been "a great change from harsh mechanisms of repression to more subtle mechanisms by which people come to do" what the powerful want, even enthusiastically. That's true enough, in fact, utter truism. If that's a "theory," then all the criticisms of me are wrong: I have a "theory" too, since I've been saying exactly that for years, and also giving the reasons and historical background, but without describing it as a theory (because it merits no such term), and without obfuscatory rhetoric (because it's so simple-minded), and without claiming that it is new (because it's a truism). It's been fully recognized for a long time that as the power to control and coerce has declined, it's more necessary to resort to what practitioners in the PR industry early in this century -- who understood all of this well -- called "controlling the public mind." The reasons, as observed by Hume in the 18th century, are that "the implicit submission with which men resign their own sentiments and passions to those of their rulers" relies ultimately on control of opinion and attitudes. Why these truisms should suddenly become "a theory" or "philosophy," others will have to explain; Hume would have laughed. http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html
Phetland then does exactly what I requested: he gives some illustrations of why he thinks Foucault's work is important. That's exactly the right way to proceed, and I think it helps understand why I take such a "dismissive" attitude towards all of this --- in fact, pay no attention to it.
What Phetland describes, accurately I'm sure, seems to me unimportant, because everyone always knew it --- apart from details of social and intellectual history, and about these, I'd suggest caution...
But let's put aside the other historical work, and turn to the "theoretical constructs" and the explanations: that there has been "a great change from harsh mechanisms of repression to more subtle mechanisms by which people come to do" what the powerful want, even enthusiastically. That's true enough, in fact, utter truism. If that's a "theory," then all the criticisms of me are wrong: I have a "theory" too, since I've been saying exactly that for years, and also giving the reasons and historical background, but without describing it as a theory (because it merits no such term), and without obfuscatory rhetoric (because it's so simple-minded), and without claiming that it is new (because it's a truism). It's been fully recognized for a long time that as the power to control and coerce has declined, it's more necessary to resort to what practitioners in the PR industry early in this century -- who understood all of this well -- called "controlling the public mind." The reasons, as observed by Hume in the 18th century, are that "the implicit submission with which men resign their own sentiments and passions to those of their rulers" relies ultimately on control of opinion and attitudes. Why these truisms should suddenly become "a theory" or "philosophy," others will have to explain; Hume would have laughed.
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html
Therefore Chomsky does not feel the need to engage in "theoretical" debate but instead acts as a public intellectual, publishing very accessible work which does raise many people's awareness (as it did for me years ago, and he continues to do so) and involves critiques of the mainstream media :
Phetland also found it "particularly puzzling" that I am so "curtly dismissive" of these intellectual circles while I spend a lot of time "exposing the posturing and obfuscation of the New York Times." So "why not give these guys the same treatment." Fair question. There are also simple answers. What appears in the work I do address (NYT, journals of opinion, much of scholarship, etc.) is simply written in intelligible prose and has a great impact on the world, establishing the doctrinal framework within which thought and expression are supposed to be contained, [cf. the criticism of the dominant economic ideology here] and largely are, in successful doctrinal systems such as ours. That has a huge impact on what happens to suffering people throughout the world, the ones who concern me, as distinct from those who live in the world that Lodge depicts (accurately, I think)[a reference to David Lodge's novels about academia, e.g. "Small World": "The unbridled greed, pettiness, buffoonery and intellectual gobbledegook in the world of higher scholarship are the topics of this thorough and thoroughly funny "roman à English department". It's interesting for a couple of reasons, aside from its humour and lampoonery: it's an insider's view of things--always the best kind."] So this work should be dealt with seriously, at least if one cares about ordinary people and their problems. The work to which Phetland refers has none of these characteristics, as far as I'm aware. It certainly has none of the impact, since it is addressed only to other intellectuals in the same circles. Ibid.
Ibid.
On what we should do to raise awareness (getting involved tends to raise one's own awareness):
Question from Arthur Buonamia: What can we as citizens do to influence a foreign policy change that is humane, and just. ... Noam Chomsky: On the first question, we should bear in mind that we are extremely privileged. We live in a very free, very democratic society. Unlike many other places in the world, we can act and speak in all sorts of ways without fear of state punishment and retribution. That leaves all kinds of avenues open to us, from meetings with neighbors or in a church or whatever organization you're in to publication to organization to demonstrations to political action to there's just every means available. It can be effective. It has been in the past and it can be now. There is no shortage of means, if there's a shortage, it's of willingness to use them. They're available. http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskychat.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskychat.html
Chomsky's angle seems more attractive to me as Foucoult's, although I must admit an awareness of my ignorance increases as I read and think on. But since Socrates remarked this would be a sign of wisdom, that should be a blessing.
Together with this increasing awareness of my ignorance, there's an increase in my sensitivity to the depth of rabbit holes. The latter is fed by what seem to be defence mechanisms of business as usual.
As Chomsky states:
there's no shortage of means; if there's a shortage, it's of willingness to use them. They're available.
When continuing asking the question 'who benefits' (or 'follow the money') what seemed coincidental, stand alone, accidental, random increasingly looses this quality.
What now? Is this system transparent to Chomsky; does he have access to data that connect all the dots?
If so: how does he value so called 'conspiracy theories'? Is 'Zeitgeist' a conspiracy theory?
Well, you can see I'm at a loss to determine, or even make an approximation of, the depth of the rabbit hole.
And until I do and many others do, I have the uncomfortable feeling I'm dishing up stories that have little or no bearing on real drivers of events.
And will remain ineffective in addressing sources of suffering.
What now? Is this system transparent to Chomsky; does he have access to data that connect all the dots? If so: how does he value so called 'conspiracy theories'? Is 'Zeitgeist' a conspiracy theory?
Chomsky doesn't have much time for conspiracy theories:
ZNet Sustianer: This begs the question: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what's to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power. Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11. http://www.rense.com/general74/dismiss.htm
Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.
http://www.rense.com/general74/dismiss.htm
He prefers what he calls "institutional analysis" and says that institutions do what you would expect them to do to protect and further their interests, and if you research what they say, they are often quite open about what they do. But sometimes this requires reading lots of material which doesn't get much attention from the media, nor, regrettably, from many academics.
ZNet Sustainer: A question that arises for me is that regardless of this issue, how do I as an activist prevent myself from getting distracted by such things as conspiracy theories instead of focusing on the bigger picture of the institutional analysis of private profit over people? Noam Chomsky: I think this reaches the heart of the matter. One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. ibid.
Noam Chomsky: I think this reaches the heart of the matter. One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis.
ibid.
While his critics accuse him of conspiracy theory, Chomsky states that his arguments are "institutional analysis." "If I point out that General Motors tries to maximise profits and market share, that's not a conspiracy theory, it's an institutional analysis ... that's precisely the sense in which we [Herman and Chomsky] are talking about the media " In dozens of books, he has meticulously documented the historical development and specific abuses that have led to the bastardized corporate-controlled democracy Americans currently endure. [1], [2] In the book, Understanding Power (ISBN 1565847032), "a series of enlightening and wide-ranging discussions, Chomsky radically reinterprets the events of the past three decades... And as he elucidates the connection between America's imperialistic foreign policy and social inequalities at home, Chomsky also discerns the necessary steps to take toward social change. With an eye to political activism and the media's role in popular struggle, as well as U.S. foreign and domestic policy." [3] http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Noam_Chomsky
While his critics accuse him of conspiracy theory, Chomsky states that his arguments are "institutional analysis." "If I point out that General Motors tries to maximise profits and market share, that's not a conspiracy theory, it's an institutional analysis ... that's precisely the sense in which we [Herman and Chomsky] are talking about the media "
In dozens of books, he has meticulously documented the historical development and specific abuses that have led to the bastardized corporate-controlled democracy Americans currently endure. [1], [2]
In the book, Understanding Power (ISBN 1565847032), "a series of enlightening and wide-ranging discussions, Chomsky radically reinterprets the events of the past three decades... And as he elucidates the connection between America's imperialistic foreign policy and social inequalities at home, Chomsky also discerns the necessary steps to take toward social change. With an eye to political activism and the media's role in popular struggle, as well as U.S. foreign and domestic policy." [3]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Noam_Chomsky
It's "transparent" if you do enough work, and Chomsky does an enormous amount and retains an amazing amount of it - cf. interviews and discussions with him. If anyone can be said to join the dots about what's really going on it's Chomsky, helped, as he would be the first to point out, by an army of correspondents sending him documentation of various kinds. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
And if this could ever be concluded, how about other phenomena we are not even aware of could be disturbingly different from the official / generally accepted 'truth'? As appears in memoires or when secret files are opened after 50 years?
Look at Greenspan's truth, which coincided for decades with those of academia, business schools, the rich and famous. Forming identities of people striving to participate in the good life. Forming the Procrustus bed countries were measured with and treated according to? How much suffering was induced with the best of intentions? Or not so good intentions? This turns out to be an, ehh, mistake? Newspeak anyone?
I realize that when reality overwhelms one's perceptional capacities, one tends to gyrate towards explanations, which turn out to be inadequate after these capacities have increased.
How much digging should one perform before painful, but reassuring clarity can be expected to be found? I'm afraid that increasing knowledge is like inflating a balloon, where contact with the unknown (outside the balloon) increases with knowledge (inside the balloon).
I would appreciate an informed and convincing debunking of, lets say 'Zeitgeist'. When I see this video, I feel there's more truth in it than I ever expected, but miss the confidence Chomsky seems to have that it just takes delving deeper to find relatively simple mechanisms.
No network of people explicitly desinterested in the suffering they induce in striving to fulfill their agenda.
This line of thinking too could be seen as another smoke screen, another layer of defense.
Ted, I don't want to take up too much of your time and solve these issues for me. Thanks for your patience.
OK, I'm done :-) - you might find some answers if you read Chomsky - I did. There's a lot of his stuff online. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
This process would be stopped or reversed when one would know where to find the insights fitting with where one's at. For a tribal oriented person, this will be different from someone from an employee at Ford.
Ideally speaking, in an effort to deflate the balloon and thus anxiety and related, one should be able to find the proper condensation kernels.
I agree that for posters here Chomsky is a good choice. But for 99% of people I meet, read from and about and who are in key positions of decision making regarding our planet it would not be a good choice. Since their world view doesn't digest it. Too time consuming, too conflicting with their social embedding, self image, comfort zone - career path.
But even when reading Chomsky, posters here and all others should situate his/their kernels. As time and culturally determined perspectives among many others, as chemical-electrical firing patterns above the neck, as defense patterns against fear of death, as manifestations of the -erroneous- subject - object division.
I must admit I'm begging the question here. Imo there are shortcuts, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M But efforts to bring these across so far have run aground, due to the overriding reliance on our intellect here and everywhere.
To me the credit and economic debacle are manifestations of this reliance. As are all manifestations of injustice, environmental degradation.
Agreed that certain insights condense data and deflate the balloon. But I see that per saldo that these condensation kernels are insufficient to stop the inflatory process.
Obviously it's not a case of either/or - in SOME fields there is a great deal of simplification as theory is developed. This is different from, say, theology, which often consists of ever more complex attempts to explain away contradictions in the sacred texts.
Are you really arguing for cultural and cognitive relativism ? In the latter case it would seem to undermine any claims you make, cf.
... they take a detached stance and simply report the epistemic customs and practices of different cultures, eschewing any impulse to endorse or criticize them. And this amounts, in Putnam's words, to "mental suicide". For, while particular norms of rationality will be entrenched within a particular culture, reason has an inalienable critical or transcendent function which can be used to criticize existing epistemic norms. Relativism can thus be accused of encouraging a certain kind of intellectual passivity. ... Their philosophical relativism may incline them towards being more open-minded and tolerant than dyed-in-the-wool absolutists and objectivists. But they cannot avoid adopting specific standpoints, choosing between theories, and endorsing particular beliefs and values. At bottom, the debate over relativism is about whether it is possible for relativists to make these commitments consistently and sincerely. http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cog-rel.htm#SH5b
http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cog-rel.htm#SH5b
That's their loss, but, for a left-wing academic, Chomsy does have a massive general audience, e.g. :
"Funny" might not be the first word that springs to mind on mention of Noam Chomsky - but many of the best political comics are well aware of his work. The late, great comedian Bill Hicks even described himself as "Chomsky with dick jokes". In case you're one of the few Guardian readers unacquainted with his workd, Noam Chomsky is not a comedian, but a 79-year-old anarchist/linguistics pioneer who has spent most of his professional life criticising the power structures of his native US and who is, according to a recent readers' poll in Prospect magazine, the world's foremost living intellectual. But is Chomsky actually funny himself? Last year I attended an evening speech he gave in the town of Windsor on the US-Canada border. Although the lecture itself was dry and detailed, it struck me during the Q&A that Chomsky was successful not only at conveying his radical political message but also at raising belly laughs from his audience with dark-laced, insightful humour about his politics. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2008/jan/21/chomskycracksmeup
In case you're one of the few Guardian readers unacquainted with his workd, Noam Chomsky is not a comedian, but a 79-year-old anarchist/linguistics pioneer who has spent most of his professional life criticising the power structures of his native US and who is, according to a recent readers' poll in Prospect magazine, the world's foremost living intellectual.
But is Chomsky actually funny himself? Last year I attended an evening speech he gave in the town of Windsor on the US-Canada border. Although the lecture itself was dry and detailed, it struck me during the Q&A that Chomsky was successful not only at conveying his radical political message but also at raising belly laughs from his audience with dark-laced, insightful humour about his politics.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2008/jan/21/chomskycracksmeup
How is his work a "manifestation of the erroneous subject-object distinstion" ?
I must admit I'm begging the question here. Imo there are shortcuts, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M But efforts to bring these across so far have run aground, due to the overriding reliance on our intellect here and everywhere. To me the credit and economic debacle are manifestations of this reliance. As are all manifestations of injustice, environmental degradation.
The economic debacle had nothing to do with an "overriding reliance on intellect"; it came from a general FAILURE to subject a theory to rigorous intellectual examination - something which only a small number of people did in the years before the debacle. Unfortunately they were ignored by influential people who had excessive reespect for Greenspan's OPINION and he himself has admitted to an unfounded TRUST in the financial institutions not to engage in practices which could endanger their own existence. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
The economic debacle had nothing to do with an "overriding reliance on intellect"; it came from a general FAILURE to subject a theory to rigorous intellectual examination - something which only a small number of people did in the years before the debacle.
I would say the failure lay not so much in not questioning the theory, but rather in not questioning the complete bollocks assumptions that underpinned the theory - or maybe that's what you mean....
Since the assumptions were chosen to lead to outcomes which suited those funding the development of the theory, and the use of other assumptions was not a good career move, then the result was inevitable. "Any economic unit can emit money. The serious problem is to get it accepted" Hyman Minsky