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Well, nothing wrong with leverage as long as you know what you are doing.

Jerome mentioned that wind projects are often only 10 % equity financed.

I guess you could well run a bank by loaning five or ten times your deposits to different projects, as long as you understand the risks inherent in the projects.

But there are some problems, like how are you going to attract capital?

  1. Issue bonds. Not in this market, and not easy or cheap to do that as a small start up bank. We have also seen how vulnerable banks who rely on bond financing have proved to be.

  2. Take deposits from ordinary people. Then you need lots of offices all over the country to get depositors. Or at least some offices in the local area. Further, you have to be better than the mega banks so the depositors will choose your bank. Hard to do for a start up, to say the least. But if you have a few hundred millions maybe you could buy the offices and staff of some failed bank for bargain basement prices?

  3. List on the stock exchange. A bank? In this market?! Nuf' said. Further, then you'll have to deal with stupid short termist profit-crazy institutional shareholders who have no understanding of your business model (if they had, they would be working for you).

  4. Bank loans. Right. Which bank feels like loaning money to another start-up bank, especially now when they won't even dare do overnight lending to each other?

  5. Contrarian venture capitalists or wealthy locals. Yep. I think this might be an idea.

Comments or ideas? :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Take deposits from ordinary people. Then you need lots of offices all over the country to get depositors. Or at least some offices in the local area. Further, you have to be better than the mega banks so the depositors will choose your bank. Hard to do for a start up, to say the least. But if you have a few hundred millions maybe you could buy the offices and staff of some failed bank for bargain basement prices?

Internet banking.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or hire a bank with depositors to sell your shares to them. With a 90/10 structure, and the interests rates that come with such leverage, that shouldn't be too hard.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't get it. </stupid>

Could you please explain again? :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if you're joking... so I will just develop.

Local banks usually seek to attract big depositors by promising higher interest rates for their savings accounts. Those depositors may have significant savings and yet be risk-averse and therefore only put their money on savings accounts. The goal of your company could be to provide those banks with the kind of investments that suit their risk-averse depositors. Afterall, what isn't a government guarantee worth these days? they should be easily convinced.


Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I really didn't understand what you meant, no joke, so thanks for your explanation.

So if I got it right my bank would find projects these local "private banking" banks would supply capital in the form of customer deposits for? And I would essentially use the deposits which really belong to the other bank to get (loaned?) capital with which I would then issue loans and keep my bank at a solidity of maybe 10-20 %...

Did I get it right?

By the way, would I pay the other bank a fee for using its depositors, or would the other bank pay me a fee for me finding investment opportunities for its customers?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 12:16:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey Starvid,

What I have been describing comes from a friend of mine who used to work at EDF in the securitization department from renewable energy projects. He gave me one of those files to take a look at, but I didn't take too close a look at it from the point of view of the bank.

I'm assuming the bank will have to get some money in the process, as what happens from its point of view is clients "leaving", as their money gets spent right away and therefore do not contribute toward their capital base and can't be invested somewhere else.

I will see this friend this week-end I think, so I will ask him some more questions and i will get back to you. Sorry for the cryptic writing, this is not my area really...

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 06:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... if the finance is in illiquid income vehicles?

That is, even if the savings are certificates of deposit, the commercial bank is going to be gaining funding short term and handing money over long term. For a bank with ready access to liquidity, its an income proposition, but for a bank who is nervous about its solvency going ahead and nervous about gaining liquidity when needed ... where is the liquidity?

Obviously if the relevant Government Reserve bank accepted units from one of these private infrastructure development banks as a repo lending asset, with no frown cost, and stopped accepting structured claims to structured claims to structured claims to rapidly dissolving piles of mortgages, or imposed a heavy frown cost on offering those types of assets for repo lending, there could well be a big push by commercial banks that happen to be liquid ... but other than that, I'm wondering.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 07:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good idea. I should have thought of it myself as my own bank is an internet bank with just a single office, the head office in a Stockholm suburb.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:40:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your first point is not correct. Bond funding is the good kind of funding, ie long term, when set up in normal times. What killed banks is that those that relied too much on short term funding (commercial paper, asset backed notes, and the like) had no good source of funding when these dried up - long term funding takes time to put in place and gets very expensive in troubled times.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why did banks like Northern Rock prefer short term paper to long term paper?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 12:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
long term rates are driven by the bond market; short term rates were driven, until the recent collapse, by the Central Bank rates.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 12:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... have a much longer term to maturity for many of the assets that they are funding when they take the Money Market short-cut. With a substantial portion of their finance maturing in any given quarter, a Finance Company can downsize its balance sheet much more rapidly than any bank, if times get rocky in Money Markets.

Of course, that downsizing of the balance sheets of Finance Companies is a substantial economic destabilizer ... there goes all those car loans for 100%+ the value of the car so that people that are over their head in their current car can get a zero-down-payment loan that buys them out of the loan on their current car.

Without access to those loans, a substantial part of the US new car market shifts to used cars ... where it is taking the place of the substantial part of the used car market that has vanished for lack of credit to allow it to be an effective demand.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 07:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This guy didn't seem to have trouble getting ordinary people to lend him money. As he put it, he got customers all the way from Roskilde so he didn't have cause to complain :-P

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 07:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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