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Is that we'd be better off in the EMU. The krona is not seen as liquid enough so people are getting out of it, weakening the currency. On the other hand I hear there is great interest in buying Swedish treasuries. Weird.

Anyway, remember how I'd say I'd much rather buy Exxon debt than US debt? The CDS for 10 year US debt is higher than on 10 year Exxon debt now...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:16:50 AM EST
Anyway, remember how I'd say I'd much rather buy Exxon debt than US debt? The CDS for 10 year US debt is higher than on 10 year Exxon debt now...

Exxon has a negative credit spread? That's wild.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I meant that it's cheaper to insure Exxon debt against default than it it to insure US debt against default.

Uh, maybe that's whay you just said? Damn finacial lingo. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "credit spread" is how much more expensive a debt issue is than sovereign debt in the same currency. That it would be negative is unpossible!

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:41:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if this is true (heard it on Puplava so... yeah), the Market(tm) believes there is a greater risk that the US government will default on its debt than that Exxon will default on its debt.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not surprised. Exxon is a global corporation and its revenues are not exclusively dependent on the US economy.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:48:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe they know something about the election that we don't.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:49:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is, the CDS spread of US sovereign is not meaningful : there is no credible seller of insurance against such armageddon, and equally few willing buyers of such crap.

You'd probably better off computing the stripped-bonds spread, which has ample liquidity in both cases I think. But again, it may not be meaningful right now, with mass stampedes in the money markets.

Wait a few more months to draw conclusions. I don't think Exxon could have a better rate than the US, at least no for very long, because of the following macro-arbitrage argument: if the liability is in USD, exxon will pay it in the US, where its legel entities would be seized/taxed to death if they still had an oil rent there, and the federal government was broke. liabilities denominated in other currencies / from non-US subsidiaries are another matter, but I don't think the pool of exxon bonds has many like these.

Pierre

by Pierre on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its legel entities would be seized/taxed to death if they still had an oil rent there, and the federal government was broke.

You think the US government believes the interests of the American people to be more important than the interests of Exxon Mobil? ;)

(Only half joking... sigh.)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason a company is usually rated lower than its government is that it can always be subjected to tax or confiscatory measures, ie the government can use the company's wealth to pay its own debts before (or instead of) those of the company.

But with multinational companies, this is no longer so simple...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 07:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but if the debt is dollar-denomitated, couldn't USA be certain to pay it because they can always print the dollars?
I know it means inflation, but then the dollar-denominated Exxon debt too would be repaid in inflated dollars.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Holding (watching) money is not "neutral"...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, who more thinks treasuries are overvalued? The world is full of great companies which won't go bust, with much better paying corporate debt.

Sure, liquidity might be bad, but if you are going to hold the bond to maturity that doesn't matter.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you're right about that.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:46:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a 4% (annualised) default rate... Ouch!

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 08:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, not so high. How what odds would you want on none of the 16 largest UK banks failing during the next year ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 11:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the implied odds of some of the 16 banks failing is 48% (annualised).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 12:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, sounds lowish to me... (and, since the LIBOR excludes the lowest quartile, one of those banks is probably borrowing at above of a 16th chance to fail...)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 12:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, LIBOR is the average of the middle 8 of the 16... And we suspect the banks understate their borrowing costs...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 12:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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