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It also differs from Europe, even today. In Europe nationalism runs approximately "we're the best because we're nation x" whereas in America it's "we're the best for reasons x, y, and z" where x, y, and z are not completely connected to ethnicity and culture.

I don't believe you are correct here. I agree with the ethnicity part, which is at least not mentioned explicitly in the States. But cultural exceptionalism is stronger in the US than in most european countries.

And garden variety patriotism in Europe is indeed all about "we're the best because of...". Only the rabid nationalists explicitly talk about culture or race. Just like in America.

by Trond Ove on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 at 04:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with MillMan.

There are two kinds of nationalisms (even if cataloguing like this is Platonism and reducing the complexity of the world, thus losing information... IE, this is not true, but a pedagogic lie).

First you have the normal one. Based on culture and ethnicity. All over the place. Might not be bad, as long as it doesn't turn aggresive.

Then we have the other one, based on ideology and values. We have it in the USA, France and the old Soviet Union.

These are often more dangerous as the nations feel they have a creed or ideology to spread, a mission civilicatrice.

But as I said above, nothing is as clear cut as this. Soviet nationalism was also based on Russian imperialism, the American variety have strong WASP elements and French republicanism of course also have ethnic markers. But it's still very different from the view in Germany or Sweden (even if the Swedish elites are much closer to the French view).


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 at 07:51:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I tend to consider civic nationalism more benign than ethnic nationalism because it is potentially more inclusive. Ethnicity is an unsurmountable barrier to citizenship.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 at 07:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess that's the other side of the coin. Ethnic nationalism can't be spread, you only can kill everyone on the other side of the border and steal their stuff. And as long as people stop thinking that's okay, nationalism won't be too bad.

Civic nationalism though... That can still be used as a cover for armed robbery on a geopolitical scale, to spread "democracy" or promote "womens rights" and so on.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 at 10:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with what you are saying here. I guess I just didn't read what you are saying into what he was saying.
by Trond Ove on Fri Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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