Basic numbers: A wind turbine is 3 Million euros.. we need to pay the people , integrate in a program, localize it, and then get the structure to get the money back.. Al in all put the tag at 3.5-4 million euros... Ok 4 million ..
given that we are 100 people who pariticapte directly on comments.. I would guess is around 40.000 euros per person...
It is too far for me.. But I can afford 10k.. so we need to expand the ET abse contribution to 400... (there are five times these people registered but...)
And then.. how many people would have the money and the willing here?
it seems that not enough people :) I hope it changes...
A pleasure I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude
I've got well over that on my balance sheet, but its not in the credit side of the ledger. Utsukushikereba sore de ii
I broke the rule and I got a credit-card.. which I try to cover with 10 times the credit int he account..He still loks at me as "know-nothing of the world" (he is absolutely right I have never been in a fascist concentration camp, he has)
So I count as if all the business go south .. then I know how much I lost at the most... So 10k is the msot I am ready to lose... so I would only take the equivalent on shares. It would be 2000 euros... a third of a share... I can push up to half a share.
I always do numbers like this.. if banks would do it like that we would not be in the mess we are.. but there again, capitalism would be a very different beast :)
The greater the equity share, the more the security of the debt share, all things equal ... of course, for different countries, all else is not equal, and if a feed-in tariff is in place, the downside risk of being unable to service the capital stake is much less. Utsukushikereba sore de ii
But IMHO investment should be in line with Cooperative principles ie one investor one vote.
Proportional shares ie"n'ths" or %ages don't have votes.
Neither would Units redeemable in (say) Kilo Watt Hours.
Both are forms of "quasi Equity" but they don't have votes.
Members have votes: and one Member would have one vote, and THEN only in matters which concern them.
The thing with a wind turbine is that it's almost purely capital once it's installed. I know there's a bit of maintenance, but, well, it's not like a medical practice where the partners are, rather obviously, the doctors, and possibly anyone else working (you may make a secretary a partner after all). But with a wind turbine, and a feed-in price, once it's online what do you have to contribute?
So it would seem that the partners would have to be mostly the ones bringing capital. Since the online turbine is pretty much just financial management, I fail to see where not taking the amount at risk into account would greatly improve things. "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
Any individual who owns redeemable Units - and these would be what makes up the Capital, having been sold to redeem any conventional debt and to give Equity Share punter investors an "exit" once the turbine is built - would be a member of the association of investor/users who would have little more than an advisory role.
The people with the continuing "Equity Share" rights to production would be the "Community" ie locals, who get an "energy dividend"; and the "Operator" (for as long as he is the operator).
Punters who invest in the development could "exit" by exchanging their "Equity Share" rights upon completion for "Units", and it's up to them whether they use them, or keep them as a pension investment.
As for a "feed in" price, that's another issue. I'm interested in the approach that the UK town of Woking takes, with a private wire locally. Also the "stranded wind" approach, where the effect would be to create (and possibly sell forward) a stream of (say) fertiliser.
On the other hand, to be honest, my impression when reading you in those few posts is that you are creating complexity for ideological reasons.
So, I hope I will eventually understand (and I realise that I should have spent the time to read your website in detail before entering the conversation), because, again, I fully expect that you are right. For the time being though, my impression remains that, while I see many cases where the cooperative system is obviously better, this particular case may not be one of them. "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
I'm not sure that the model Chris is proposing is the very best possible, but I think it's certainly a better alternative than the traditional model, and unless and until we invent up with an even better alternative I'd be happy to support it.
I'd be happier still to view this is a trial ballon for even larger projects. The Saharan Solar project has a lot of potential, and it's probably not a good plan to wait for the EU to make it happen officially.
I'd be very excited about an EU-wide Saharan Solar public investment project, combining grass-roots micro-investment with more traditional capital funding.
Grass-roots contribution machines shouldn't just be for US elections. I'm sure we can do something interesting with them in the EU too.
I see that as contributing to renewable energies, enabling a joint initiative over two continents but involving only "normal" people (as opposed to super rich), and giving ET some exposure of course. That's already quite a lot, and very worthy.
If we want to promote arrangements that give more rights to the workers, lock in long term deals between producers and consumers... that's very fine as well, but I doubt that a wind turbine is the right project for that. I may be wrong, in which case by all means let's do it. But I'd hate to see a good idea go to waste because we would have loaded it with too many dreams and expectations. "The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
Presumably these units are the "dividends", or whatever term we wish to use to denote the revenue stream (value stream) produced. But those of us on a different grid need to monetarize these units anyway, don't we? "Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
