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Both unions and businesses are associations of people and both represent their own self-interests.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Both represent what they think are their best interests.

We've seen recently how well that works for everyone.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just questioning the framing of the comment.  It's not people v. businesses.  It's working people v. owning people.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in terms of who has more power? And more money also?

Business groups kick off about regulation and not letting the free market be truly free to let them do things how they wish to.

The UK unions are fairly restrained by legislation that limits their activities, US unions even more so. It isn't an even balance.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To expand on my comment to poemless: business interest groups are like the old pre-universal-suffrage voting system in various countries, when people's vote was weighted on the basis of their wealth.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to be assuming some prinicple based on your own local experiences.  Here in America, unions have a ton of money, and I can assure you, not all gotten the honest way.  Heads of unions and CEOs are cut from the same cloth here.  And how much power do the unions have?  Well, there's a debate in Congress about bailing out the auto industry, which has repeatedly effed up, with our tax dollars.  Who is for it?  Dems.  Who does labor give money to?  Dems.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Union honchos can be as money-grubbing as middle-ranked managers, yes. But if you add up the money/campaign contributors of unions and divide it by union membership, and then add up the money/campaign contributors of business owners and CEOs and divide it by their numbers, I bet there is a difference. Which is the point.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Businesses represent capital, not people.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What about those myriads of very small businesses? Made by people like you and me, and who employ a majority of working people today.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do the majority of those working people own the majority of the working capital?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, but their employers are often not the vicious capitalists some seem to assume them to be, but people like you and me who opened a coffeeshop or a barbershop with their feeble savings and are not exploiting or lobbying anyone. Any worker can be tomorrow in that situation, especially as more and more micro-credit banks start off.
A huge majority of people works for these small employers, people like them, not for the big corps'.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A huge majority ? including the state employees as working in a very large company, the median employee works in a company employing 200-1000.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
97% of companies in Europe are micro-companies (under 50 employees).

In France, it seems there are about 5 million employees in micro-companies and about 9 million in companies with under 250 employees (wikipedia TPE/PME and pme.gouv.fr).


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not "a huge majority of employees work for very small companies". That's "a fifth of French employees work for micro-companies, and a minority for companies under 250 employees".

And a 200 employees company is already quite large.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Granted, my mistake. The number of employees is quite large anyway, but that's not the point.
I actually had in mind the proportion, 97%, which is about the number of TPE - small businesses, not employees.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most small businesses employ tens or hundreds of people. High street micro-businesses are very much a footnote economically - and they also have a very poor survival record because they're often undercapitalised as start-ups.

It's nearly impossible to start a workable small business without a decent stash of capital.

Of course it's not impossible, but even with microcredit it's hardly the open door you seem to assume it is. Most business don't become profitable for at least a couple of years.

As for employers - some are good, some are bad. Either way, workers do not have the same degree of control over their personal finances that employers do.

When your personal welfare depends on having a job, you're in a position of permanent political inequality with the caste which decides whether or not to employ you.

You seem to see this as a natural phenomenon, when in fact it's merely expedient and traditional.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those aren't the businesses on the other side of labour conflicts with unions.

Made by people like you and me,

Aren't unionised train drivers and capitalists also people like you and me?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you speak about small capital capitalists, yes.

Unionised train drivers, at least in France, were in a logic of lets do as much damage as possible and force them to submit.
Their reasons were hanging tight to privileges.
They were used to act from a very ideologic point of view that might be familiar to yourself :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:49:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So in what way are you and me similar but French train drivers and big capital capitalists not?

Methinks you again used a common right-wing phrase without thinking and can't get out of it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not at all :)

French train drivers and big capitalists share something called privilege. As said above. Sigh.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 08:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is higher pay a "privilege" ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somehow I suspect there aren't many coffee shops which have been put out of business by over-aggressive train drivers.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:07:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither by over-greedy big capitalists, if you want.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 08:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah now... I can't generalise for other countries but in the UK this is exactly what happens. A Tesco opens on a high street and we lose the family run locally owned greengrocers because their custom has been taken away.

A starbucks opens and the local coffee shop closes, because the custom has been taken away.  By great big fat multinational chains.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 03:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a sensitive issue in France as well.
Small businesses and "artisanal" shops were protected and multinational chains spreading restricted inside cities.
With the result that there are still fewer and fewer traditional shops and more and more cheap, arab or chinese run shops. (not that anyone has anything against them, just that people's run for cheaper and cheaper stuff will just not be suppressed)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 05:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one owns that capital?  I guess those CEOs are just babysitting those summer homes...

What happened to the reality based community here?

BTW, anyone in the room besides me (and I assume In Wales) actually IN a union?

Trust me, I loved the things before I had to join one.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I still like it.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one owns that capital?

That's not the point. The point is that money talks. That means that it doesn't matter how many people are represented, what matters is how much money is represented.

anyone in the room besides me (and I assume In Wales) actually IN a union?

I am. (In fact, just last week we elected our new representative.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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