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Actually, your last point is precisely why we're in a kind of contest here. I don't look at this as abstract high-minded philosophy at all. The theoretical is already political and practical. You have to have a theory before you act. That seems to go hand in hand.

I only brought things like race and sex up because these two categories are held in such certitude by most people as being fundamentally based in hard science.

When you realize that these categories are contested and contestable as having no real biological basis, then the previous certitude or "common sense" about their truthful or absolute existence ends up being just one more ideological point-of-view.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 05:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have to have a theory to start with, you must be ready to abandon it, were it proven wrong - otherwise it's ideology.

As to the race issue, without reading anything deep on it, mine was a common sensical conclusion (for which I expect to be labeled far-right).

Pragmatism sometimes looks narrowminded because of its temptation to a slightly simplificating approach what I called the everyday-life sense, or Newton's laws).
In other words, rational pragmatism would seem to require brilliant people like Obama or Clinton to really reach a critical mass.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 06:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Theory is thought, no?

Same thing.

Thoughts don't appear from out of the blue, neither do values, neither do beliefs.

Ideology is simply one's belief system. If you believe anything, your within ideology. There is no outside.

I just think calls for pragmatism inevitably force me to adopt horrid positions that I don't like. What's pragmatic about pragmatism?

And if you don't read deeply into definitions which most people regard as absolutes (about race for example) aren't you simply deluding yourself?

I mean, I like to know if I'm constantly referring to something I believe is real, but in any sense other than cultural usage, it doesn't exist. There's no essential race out there, neither sociological, nor genetic/biological, not in any field. We can't even define it on the cultural level. There has never been an adequate cultural definition for race, never mind a biological proof that it even exists.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 11:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's pragmatic about pragmatism ?  And yet I nuanced that several times already, for the sake of clarity: I called it pragmatic methodology, or concern for objectivity, refusal of ideology as explanation or framework, I mentioned what we could call the relevant depth of analysis in a given situation, you can call the thing common sense, something empirical, likely to stir you into more search for meaning, but still there for most of us.

As to race, you are actually protesting against the ideologies of the last 40 years, who defined race in absolute, anthropological and morphological terms.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 07:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with pragmatism is that first, it allows people to maintain that their position (after much careful thought, etc.) is as close to objectivity as possible. Furthermore, it allows them to engage in debate at the level of dialectical argument, a test of logic and wills, so-called rationality, much as you see in televised debates on television.

By recognizing the total work of ideology, however, you're forced into a more critical and skeptical approach to your beliefs and ideas. You're asked to see them as an interlocking pattern of beliefs that's culturally bound, not solely reliant on logic or common sense, etc. Nietzsche said that the errors in thinking are inevitably the values passed down through the centuries, so that common wisdom never questions itself as long as it regards its bases (DEPTH) as natural or normal or given. Thus, things like sex and race go unexamined. Instead, we argue logically and rationally about the formations of race and sex, but we never actually think beyond that narrative frame to see whether these things have any substance.

by Upstate NY on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 08:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fundament of a rational approach is to always allow space for doubt. Doubt is very important, particularly today as everybody seems to need to appear as certain and self-assured come what may. Concern for Objectivity is the mother of Doubt. Concern for pragmatism will stop Doubt from becoming impractical. I don't believe in ideologies of Logic or what yourself declare "so-called Rationality", but rather in non-ideologies of Doubt and Reason.

"Not solely reliant on logic or common sense"... you say 'not solely', yet you speak about 'recognizing the total work of ideology' and seem to be making an assumption with the hope that it will bring you into a more critical approach by some kind of counter-reaction. Very weird reasoning. One cannot claim that everything is culturally bound, nor that common sense (or wisdom) would always be a mere cultural/social construct. Sometimes they are, other times not so.
A rational approach is also about recognizing one's own limits and realizing tendencies of taking something as the final (common sense) base, the absolute truth.

That's why I said that this seems to require people capable of sensing when they start to take as definitive things that are not so, when it is the moment to halt an analysis, or to continue it, or to declare it undecided.
I rather tend to say it's a matter of teaching people to think critically, purely and simply, a bit like French school did before the advent of  libertarianism in education.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 09:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frequently you have made reference to things that you believe are the truth or are common sense and are not social constructs - all objective and rational as far as you are concerned.

My approach is to question everything - the critical approach that you seem to think the left are utterly incapable of.  Who can really truly say where the line should be drawn on what is culturally bound or not?  If you took some of things you consider to be absolute common sense and tried to apply that to a tribe in Africa or the Amazon, would it still stand?  Would it still stand if something that is common sense and in no way culturally bound in your opinion, in France was compared to another European country?

You have made a number of assumptions about many different things here, whilst inconsistently saying that these very things should be questioned.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yours is a natural objection, and some of my positions were said ideological, sometimes to show that the word can be thrown back at myself, sometimes because (I'm well aware) they actually sound biased.
I call ideologists lesson givers and Keepers of the Truth because the only self-criticism they seem capable of is rather for not being puritanical enough. This is true for the left as for the right, for libertarians, conservatives, or neocons. Eliot Spitzer in the article I quoted said just that.

But as I said above, while doubt, keeping an open mind, questioning and self-questioning, are fundamental, this shouldn't stop one from being pragmatic about things, and avoid getting closed in a vicious circle of relativism.
If we quit the philosophical scene and leave aside ideologies, we'll likely notice there actually are quite a lot of things we know already, but refuse to see, admit, or whose importance we diminish because it doesn't fit with our previous positions or preferred ideology.
The only way to show there's no artificial bias, is sound, honest argumenting.

I gave several examples, that I called obvious:

  • work conditions today, and the political bias of certain unions (that we're not allowed to contest, for risk of appearing in favour of corporations, against the workers);
  • freemarketeers' ideological bias (which we cannot criticize without being accused of socialism);
  • social conditioning (if we contest its preponderance, it usually follows we would support biological determination and traditionally imposed social roles);
  • racism (whenever I brought forth cultural differences as the main cause for xenophobia, I've been accused of denying French institutional racism)

On the other thread, enouncing this simple idea: it always goes both ways (be it about gender discrimination, immigrant integration, or other things), it was perceived by some as "alien", politely contested - until I dared call nursing a noble profession, thus excluding a whole range of arguments at the base of woman discrimination claims; hence I "became" a mysoginist; when I dared more (I am brave, am I not! :) ) and said work conditions today don't compare with those 100 years ago, ah, that, was an ideological statement, pay was brought into discussion (which I never mentioned), I "became" a thatcherian propagandist.  

The only way to show my good faith and my only concern: finding the truth, was to present the two facets and frame it as a question.
Can you really not see how precipitated, ill-thought and ideological these conclusions are?

Of course, you can always turn my reasoning at me and say that by claiming common sense, I would decide what is true and what is not, I would bring forth my certitudes.
This will always be the risk for rational pragmatists: "how dare you say things are so, impose your own truth, claiming logic and pragmatism? it's just a rhetorical method to exclude others' truths!"

False issues. Theoretical. Ideological. We actually know a lot of stuff as true already; relative stuff is much less than we like to admit. Nuancing is not the same thing as relativism. Seeing both sides of a problem, for instance, the employee's and the manager's, the man's and the woman's, the immigrant's and the local's, is an indispensable tool in finding solutions, and a proof of fundamental good faith.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And there is something else.
Your questions, highminded or not, are theoretical. If you look at my examples, they are all practical issues that matter today. We might speak about races and the importance of the cultural/civilizational factors, or about genders and socially-constructed gender-roles. But what is the relevance of this in real life ? I'll comment on a proper example.

And I might not even be able to find an answer. Being a rationalist doesn't mean being all-knowing. As I said before, it is all about the methodology - especially the refusal of any ideology.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 06:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just reject this idea that this is theoretical and not practical.

That's not how I live my life.

If you think people don't reject binary divisions of sex in real life then you haven't gotten around much. You'd be totally surprised at the incidence of hermpahroditism. On m college campus there are many many students who live this reality EVERY day.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 11:31:35 PM EST
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Ok... we can talk about hermaphroditism (side debates blossomed everywhere, anyway)...
just remind me, in what way is this connected, let alone opposed to a pragmatic, un-ideologic approach to politics, or indeed, to life ?

I'm not being polemical, just noting that I didn't claim rationalism would pretend to give new definitions to things or situations. If incidence of hermaphroditism is relevant (in general, or in a given situation), then it may well be entitled to be declared an absolute truth :) I still don't see the problem.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 08:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Up above, in a post, you asked me to poll people to see if they thought there were two sexes or not.

That's what I was responding to.

by Upstate NY on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 08:13:25 PM EST
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I would think we could agree that SEX is an incontrovertible term, unless one is NOT HUMAN.

"Gender" in languages signifies cultural norms (say, hierarchical social constructs) and the instrumentality of reproductive capability and political ideologies or economics.

There is too that bio-ethical dilemma evinced in clone technologies yet opposed by law that defeats the "rules" of reproductive politics (cf Mary O'Brien, eg), gender politics (a/k/a "sexism" or "feminism"), and scientific veridical methodologies to which arbiters of Western civilizations appeal for rationales, the legitimacy of punative actions.

Some day being born either male or female will cease to carry institutional value. We all will learn to be it.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Dec 1st, 2008 at 12:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Within sexual reproduction, all those who are fertile can be divided into sex. Infertile variations of humans not so much.

If infertile variations are divided into the group most similar according - the groups constructed from the  sexual reproduction schemes - then you are dealing with a socially constructed cathegory that is wider then the biological one. So no, sex is not an incontrovertible term unless you deal solely with fertile individuals.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:31:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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