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No serious Marxist today would posit that there is an alternative economic system other than capitalism.

Ummmm, I'd contest that, but that would demand a diary of its own and too much of my time.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess what Upstate NY is saying is that any Marxist who would posit that there is an alternative economic system other than capitalism is not "serious."  (To be taken seriously.)  Not whether such people exist.  

I want your diary!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, who would these Marxists be?

From Althusser to Zizek, I haven't read those claims.

In my reading of Marxists, the goal of revolution is seizing control of the levers of the economy.

by Upstate NY on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 04:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well... lemme chart some central points of that unborn diary.

  • There Is No Alternative is historically a very narrow view about a system barely 250 years old, whatever one thinks about the viability of Marxist alternatives
  • holding the levers of the economy is not yet capitalism
  • 'applied Marxism' doesn't start nor ends with state monopolism -- in fact in the end, even the state as we know it would go
  • what you said applies more to what was realised by Soviet-style communism, especially after the end of the NEP (which indeed some term state capitalism -- with the apparatchniks functioning de-facto owners of capital)
  • there are some non-Soviet examples (1956 Workers' Councils in Hungary, Zapatista villages in Chiapas)
  • Žizek is into analysisng, not into proscribing


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although this Žižek article may be topical.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not that there's absolutely no alternative. It's that the apocalypse has a better chance of happening than another economic system taking root.

And I never wrote about apparatchiks taking control of the levers.

Representatives of the proletariat do it, and thereby effectively redistribute the wealth.

The reason why Marxists I named aren't proscriptive is because they see no point in proscribing another system. But Zizek is proscriptive about a great many other things. From Darfur to the Balkans and a great many other situations, he has ventured into political proposals.

What do you mean by analyzing? It sounds like another one of these theory/practice divides that we're laboring under in this diary.

"Applied Marxism?"

by Upstate NY on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 08:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my reading of Marxists, the goal of revolution is seizing control of the levers of the economy.
But this can be misleading.  Marx and Engels were rather hapless as actual revolutionaries and their goal of seizing control of the levers of the economy was very theoretical.  Lenin and Trotsky actually accomplished that goal and it is quite possible that Marx and Engels would have been horrified by the process.  Yet the identities of Marx and Lenin have been concatenated into "Marxist-Leninist," thereby discrediting the fine analysis and sociology of Marx with the deeds and methods of Lenin.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 09:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I guarded against going back to Marx by writing about Neo-Marxists in the last 30 years.

These are the people who counsel seizing control of state apparatuses. Nor would Soviet Russia count as a capitalist society that was seized.

According to people such as Althusser and several other Neo-Marxists, it's not that there are no other alternate systems. It's that capitalism is so thoroughly pervasive and entrenched that the world's whole way of life is gripped by it. In other words, alternative systems cannot displace it at the fundament. Look at China. From agrarian society and suddenly there's hypercapitalism there.

On Wall Street, the managers have been reading Karl Marx and passing around his books for the last decade or so. It's considered reading that will help you get ahead. The dunderheads used to read books like, "Who Moved my Cheese?", and now they've graduated to Marx. Which no doubt explains credit default swaps as well.

by Upstate NY on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I guarded against going back to Marx by writing about Neo-Marxists in the last 30 years.
Yet you never referred to Neo-Marxists.  Thanks for your clarification.  It makes the comment more meaningful.  I have little familiarity with the writings of the Neo-Marxists.

The dunderheads used to read books like, "Who Moved my Cheese?", and now they've graduated to Marx. Which no doubt explains credit default swaps as well.
LOL! You can lead them to Marx, but you can't specify what they will get out of him.  
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep or touch not the Pyrian spring.
-----Alexander Pope


As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some Marxists here, or here. They discuss the financial crisis, or climate change and such.

Wouldn't you count the classical socialdemocracy as an off-spin of Marxism? Up till the "third way" 1990s, certain Marxist awareness was still there. If Lenin's bolsheviks would not had taken the call to revolution that seriously (in barely capitalist Russia, of all places), Marx's legacy in the 20th Century would probably had been very different.

Ideologies (as world perspectives) are not dead really. Instead, a strong selection towards public awareness is taking place, especially now, once the "only" Soviet alternative is defeated. Only those ideologies that fit social legitimation needs of power/wealth holders are promoted, while others are ignored or ridiculed. This period is special by the degree of control of ideology selection. But once consensi of G20 dinners and intimidation of free tanks would cease, more various ideas will be discussed.

by das monde on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd definitely call it a logical outgrowth of Marx/Engels. Ditto for Stalinism or Maoism. Marx wrote a lot, not of all it consistent or perfectly clear, and a majority of it more descriptive than prescriptive. Times changed, ideologies changed.

But then I also think that one of Marxism's problems has traditionally been a certain tendency among it's adherents to treat Marx as a Prophet and his writing as scripture. I far prefer the notion of him as one of the nineteenth century's greatest thinkers who revolutionized how we think of society and spawned a political movement. At least that's what I think his relevance is today.

by MarekNYC on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 12:04:30 AM EST
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I see Stalin first of all of a practitioner - the implementer of the Marxist-Leninist thread in the "real world". (As opposed to Hitler, who was more a "theorist" but supported by some "practical" industrial-financial classes). Mao copied quite a lot on Stalin's understanding of proletariat dictatorship. Both Stalin and Mao consolidated their powers following historical examples of their own countries (aka Ivan the Terrible, etc)

Apart from compulsory (and rather formal) indoctrination by Soviet education and politicization, what would be examples of Marx's adherents treating him as a Prophet?

 

by das monde on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 03:11:45 AM EST
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I basically agree with you on Stalin - I was simply seeking to illustrate the other extreme of Marxism in practice.

On Marx as prophet and his writings as scriptures though, I stand by my point. If you look at the debates during the Second International period in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, or those within the SPD during Weimar, there is a strong tendency among the participants to argue from Marx rather than from a broader perspective. That is, you'd get ideas 'refuted' by saying that they went against this or that in Marx's writings, rather than a genuine counterargument. Then there's the whole teleological aspect of the Marxist narrative. There I feel that Marx himself bears quite a bit of blame. All in all, Marxists seemed to often forget that Marx was just a human being who lived in a certain period of time, a brilliant one, but without psychic powers and quite capable of being wrong.

by MarekNYC on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 01:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I clicked on the links.

Gould and Buchanan seem to be adopting Engels especially for their science fights.

The problem with capitalism is that it has been adopted all over the world. Once ingrained systemically, the transition to alternatives seems like a bit of fantasy.

I recognize that it is but one ideology, and yet its pervasiveness and ability to adapt and encumber resistant movements make it all the more formidable. Capitalism seems better able to accommodate a critique of metaphysics in the wake of Marx.

Again, the most well-known Neo-Marxist theorists have pushed Marxist thought into our century, and yet they recognize the dominance of the capitalist model as being so pervasive not because it's the better one (necessarily), but because of its evident entrenchment. That doesn't mean there aren't other models out there, communal, etc. It just means that those models are, for all purposes, impractical at the moment, and any chance they have of becoming dominant is usually rooted in the complete collapse and total failure of capitalism. Which won't do much for the proletariat, I suppose.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 12:38:22 AM EST
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The pervasiveness of modern libertarian capitalism is not necessarily deep. It's only some 15 years ago that the privatization fever (or utility, transportation, communication services) started in Western Europe.

The biggest obstacle for alternative views is the "self-interest" of leading industrial and political classes, I think. They pushing forward this libertarism as de facto social legitimation. The power-holding classes made quite a progress in the recent decade in accumulating a critical mass of economic and political power. By now they are almost autonomous from the masses (and any "dangerous" ideas).

Several aspects of ideological isolation dynamics can be found in Naomi Klein's book "The shock doctrine". I will give two examples from there:

  1. Prior to Pinochet's (and similar) coups in Southern America, the developing countries there were quite on their own way of building their societies and economies, independent on either Moscow's socialism or Washington's capitalism. The governments were pro-active and positively interested in building egalitarian social structures. Naomi Klein even uncovered a letter of Kissinger, where he expressed urge to intervene not because the Allende government was terribly pro-Soviet, but because it was building a more attractive alternative economic system. The South American coups resulted in quite a genocide of any leftist sentiments. (But now South Americans apparently build some autonomous anti-libertarian relations anyway.)

  2. Friedman's economic theory had a marginal academic status until the 1960-1970s, until Wallstreet-backed think-tanks started to support his convenient Chicago school handsomely. Their academic status still rose very slowly, but they were very active in recruiting and educating students from developing countries (from Chile, especially). They took full initiative with Reagan and Teacher. After they "took over" IMF and the World Bank policies, libertarian ideology was offered as the "Washington consensus"  all over the world, from Bolivia to Poland and Russia, from Mandela's South Africa to "pragmatist" China.

This pervasiveness of libertarian ideology might turn out to be a relatively short episode, after all.
by das monde on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 03:50:35 AM EST
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Let me be clear here about Friedman. I'm not talking about Friedman's models. If Friedman never existed, we'd still have capitalism.

If you look at late capitalism today, especially it's global character, the dismantling of this system would cause such upheaval, especially when it comes to distribution of energy resources and food, that many hundreds of millions would die, if not billions.

It's so systemically entrenched at a global level that a move to another system is the equivalent of radiation therapy to remove a cancer.

Here and there, there may be alternative models, but globally it seems to be the model most countries have adopted.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 08:44:32 AM EST
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This flavor of capitalism is not to last long. Although it may repeat itself after 70 years or so. (The magic 70 years - exactly the time for a generation to be born and die out.)

This global capitalism is a problem, in all its unsustainability. The world we know is dismantling before our eyes.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine...

I am not talking about imposing other global order. I do not recommend any particular global order at all. In contrary - global top-to-down economic solutions must be resisted. To survive this economic crash, every country, community must have freedom to make decisions of its own. Someone would strike then ingenious solutions very probably. That's why plurality of ideologies is welcome now.

I wish this capitalism to retain most of its structure and buzzing network as it can. But the global system must be open to voluntary unscripted adaptations of its parts. What is not welcome is to let clubs of G20-lite leaders of wealth and power holders to decide everything. That would likely to lead to reversing all social evolution of the last 120 years, back to "Oliver Twist" scale gaps between haves and havenots.

by das monde on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 08:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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