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I doubt that too many people have seriously considered the consequences of the earth entering a new super interglacial period.  Only some of the effects can be modeled very well.  The carrying capacity of the earth is likely to be greatly reduced, including the amount of human life it will support.  

For starters, sea levels will rise by more than 70 meters.  It could lead to a world substantially without naturally occurring ice.  I think that a map of the world's land areas after a 70 meter rise in sea levels would be instructive. The conventional wisdom is that such a rise would take centuries.  But with non-linear processes it could be significantly quicker.  Even on a time scale of two centuries, that could be faster than much of the worlds existing fauna and flora could adapt.

While there would be extensive new littoral zones which are usually rich in marine life, much of that new area will be significantly polluted.  There is likely to be much less arable land.  The change would be of the kind that could best be illustrated by science fiction scenarios.  Literally, most of life as we know it is likely to disappear.  It is well worth serious efforts to slow and then reverse these trends.  To me it would be worth it on aesthetic grounds alone.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 04:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTY, carbon capture and sequestration, CCS, is itself a form of geoengineering.  All human activity is.  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Thu Nov 20th, 2008 at 04:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CCS at the source is not a feasible idea, I think. Something for another diary, soon. It's alright to question whether we can have a meaningful definition of geoengineering. At least it needs to be deliberate and large scale with an intended effect to roll back surface warming. CCS is preventative, it does not revert already committed climate change, so it does not conform.

To some degree, we are already engaged in biochemical carbon capture: the generation of algal blooms through large scale injections of phosphates and other stuff in the seas and oceans. This is not a deliberate measure to roll back global warming, though. Anyway, the results are not pretty.

CSMonitor: Ocean 'dead zones' growing

Dead zones - areas of oxygen-depleted bottom waters - are spreading at an alarming rate in coastal waters, killing off huge amounts of marine life, a new study has found.

In a paper published today in Science, Robert Diaz, a biological oceanographer at the Virginia Institute of Marine Science, and Rutger Rosenberg, a marine ecologist at Sweden's Göteborg University, identified more than 400 dead zones worldwide, affecting an area of more than 95,000 square miles, an area roughly the size of Oregon. The number and size of these dead zones are far greater than previously estimated.

While some dead zones occur naturally, many are caused or exacerbated by chemical fertilizer runoff, fossil fuels, and rain. The fertilizer, which is rich in nitrogen compounds, is washed away from farmlands into rivers and ends up in the ocean. Burning fossil fuels produces airborne nitrogen oxides, which the rain washes into the ocean.

The nitrogen compounds feed massive algae blooms. When the algae dies, it sinks to the ocean floor where it is consumed by microbes, which also consume oxygen in the process. As the oxygen is depleted, creating a condition called hypoxia, marine life that can flee does, and life that cannot - some fish but also clams, crustaceans, and other bottom dwellers - die of asphyxiation. At that point, microbes that live in oxygen-free environments begin to thrive and produce hydrogen sulfide, a poisonous gas. Most dead zones are seasonal, as the algae thrives in warm water.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should have put quotes around "geoengineering."

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 10:12:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Life as we know it survived the last 70m ocean level rise pretty well... Mass extinction is being caused by humans, but I don't think climate change, even rather quick, would be that catastrophic for a fauna that after all has been trained on quickly changing temperature for the last couple million years...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:46:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference with previous shifts, even if they were as rapid as the one we're now speculating about, is that humans have fragmented the habitats of (at least the higher) species to an extreme degree. Migration is going to be a lot more difficult. On top of that we get the extinctions already caused by direct human influence and invasive species spread by humans. So we have a very dangerous situation.

I'm not an ecologist, but my guess would be that most of the top of the food pyramid comes tumbling off if we continue as we do, and a lot of ecosystems will go into disequilibrium, causing further extinctions. It's a very dangerous situation for the human species to be in. We're not technologically ready to survive as more than a rump if the ecosystem services we rely on fall down. The amount of social upheaval that will accompany this transition makes planning it impossible. I'm pessimistic about human survival in the face of catastrophic climate change.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I certainly believe the change could be catastrophic for humans, but this would mitigate the ecological catastrophe for those higher order species... And barring nuclear winter type scenarios, I don't see how the human species would actually die out, despite seeing its numbers vastly reduced.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have seen articles within the last year which express concern that a shift into a super-interglacial, which was accompanied by a 6-8C increase in the average ambient, even over a period of several centuries, could exceed the rate at which local flora could successfully adapt.  There would, of course, be survivors, but these would not be appropriate to much of the local fauna, down to and beyond insectivora.  Unfortunately I do not have links or even hard copy, at least at hand.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 10:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to have a very casual approach there. Life would take the mother of all blows from a rapid melting. The continents' shores are polluted enough that it would wipe off most of the shallow water marine life. Species are NOT trained to such a rapid change.
A lot of species died in the climate change periods of the holocen, and they were not nearly as rapid as what is projected. But also, species had a much larger and undamaged habitat then. And the shores were clean. Finally, there was no dominant species to kill all animals bigger than a grasshoper because it was starving from the huge reduction of its agricultural land.

It would be an unfathomable catastrophe.

Now, I don't expect +70m anytime soon, and by that I mean within the next million years. It would be too catastrophic not to take the most drastic of actions.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:19:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In this scenario, clouds of lotuses would likely become food for the, (noticeably less numerous,) masses.  Just because it sounds like doom porn and would make great backgrounds for post-apocalyptic barbarian epic movies doesn't mean it is, (or is not,) not a serious possibility.

Mig provided a link that showed the global effects of sea level increases up to 7 meters.  I believe that such a link that showed the effects of a 70 meter rise might be useful to show people what their great, great grandchildren, if any, could be inheriting.  Just because we will all be dead does not mean that we can abandon concern for posterity.  Perhaps one of the benefits of increased life span could be a heightened concern for future generations, more of whom some of us might see.


If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 10:48:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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