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It's good to see this on the front page, it would have been nice to see some of this in the OT, where I tried to raise the issue. The OT is not just light chat, it has been full of detailed discussion of US politics for months. Maybe a wider range of people than those who would choose to enter this special topic area might have gained more understanding of French politics and the French in general - something which I think Jerome would welcome given recent fulminations :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:31:33 PM EST
I haven't had much time lately. Did you write a diary on this, that we might have frontpaged?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:33:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to be sorry; I'm not blaming you Jerome, you do more than your share. I'm not qualified to do a diary about it. But my point was about trying to get a wider range of issues discussed in the OT, not diaries or even the Front page - which involves an option to look at the discussion.

We do tend to reflect American cultural dominance - for understandable reasons - its politics gets massive coverage - in the OT. Apart from the relative neglect of France and Europe, when did you ever see Latin America discussed in the OT - it's quite a big area :-) I did try dragging it in too. If you do look for stories about it, guess what, they mostly have a US link. But then I don't speak Spanish  :-)  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried but was sidetracked by beaujolais nouveau banter from the british isles crowd.
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Multi-task :-) I was the sole defender of poor old BN, but also managed to put up a few other topics for discussion - without much luck.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason the OT was full of US politics for ages was that US members were asked not to fill the diary list with US election diaries.

Normally, however, a discussion as long as the one in this thread should be in a dedicated diary or front-page story, where there's room for it to develop and that can be more easily found later for reference.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it's not either-or is it? There were still lots of US diaries, and I'm not the first to regret the relative lack of European topics in the OT. I know the OT is often light-hearted, but it's also so often about the US. The point was quite general, and relates to the discussion of ideology in ValentinD's diary. US culture is very dominant; it tends to dominate even in a forum highly critical of its economic model. It's perhaps useful to remind ourselves about that sometimes and to try to make more conscious efforts to resist that domination and search out non US-related topics in Europe and the world - where people resisting that domination are trying to be heard:


"Cultural globalization, driven by communication technology and the worldwide marketing of Western cultural industries, was understood at first as a process of homogenization, as the global domination of American culture at the expense of traditional diversity. However, a contrasting trend soon became evident in the emergence of movements protesting against globalization and giving new momentum to the defense of local uniqueness, individuality, and identity. These movements used the same new technologies to pursue their own goals more efficiently and to appeal for support from world opinion.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Globalization?t=2.

The domination is also more specific, it's not just American, Americans suffer too; it's US mainstream media agenda - the horse-race dominates attention. When that's over it's: "Will he pick Hillary?" "What will Palin do now?" etc. Maybe we can break out of CNN's "Situation Room" :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pointing out what was requested. It did reduce the number of US election diaries so we could see the European ones in between.

As for US domination of world discourse, when you've got a solution, write a diary about it ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The drop in diaries post-Obama was a natural result of intense interest and even stress (are they really going to screw with the results again?) leading to a climax.

We'll find stuff to grumble about in due course ;-)

There was no overload of US election diaries for me, it was a paradigm-shifting global event.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was moaning (it's a Brit thing :-)) about the OT. One can easily choose which diaries to read - the OT is often dominated by US stuff and, and, echoing US media, by narrowly horse-race stuff or DC political speculation.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The OT is started late afternoon, EU time, and this is the time when US-based ETribbers drop by and we start a chat around the water cooler.

So that US oriented themes have dominated the OT doesn't surprise me terribly, especially over the past couple of months during the run-up to the presidential election.

By contrast, when the Salon was started early in the morning EU time, it was invariably dominated by EU and other non-US themes -- still is, BTW.

So that's my explanation == time zones; back in the spring of 2007, the OT was all about the French elections and French stuff (another occasion for Brit moaning:-))

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 11:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The OT is started late afternoon, EU time, and this is the time when US-based ETribbers drop by and we start a chat around the water cooler.

Most europeans have then finished work so you might expect them to dominate, if we're thinking about time zones.


So that US oriented themes have dominated the OT doesn't surprise me terribly, especially over the past couple of months during the run-up to the presidential election.

Believe it or not it's not the only significant thing happening in the world, and, as I said, the chat often follows the US media horse-race focus - there's more to politics. Also the outcome isn't likely to fundamentally change things - cf. Nader article.


By contrast, when the Salon was started early in the morning EU time, it was invariably dominated by EU and other non-US themes -- still is, BTW.

The Salon has a healthier balance because it has sections specifically for: "Europe", "world" - but often it doesn't get a lot of comment.


So that's my explanation == time zones; back in the spring of 2007, the OT was all about the French elections and French stuff (another occasion for Brit moaning:-))

IF it really was all about French elections and French stuff it would have been a rather unusual change - and living in France I wouldn't have such a problem :-)

As I said it is related to the discussion of ideology in ValentinD's diary; the fact that you see US cultural domination (widely acknowledged) as just due to phenomena like time-zones - "it's natural" - is another example of the obfuscating nature of ideology.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I agree, the time zone difference may not explain everything.

As for the US cultural domination, I'll just say: guilty as charged. I've been living in the USA for a number of years and I've been following US politics since then. So I may have a skewed view of what the right balance "should" be on ET.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see more coverage on European issues and countries -- outside France, that is.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some discussion of French politics in the OT tonight - progress :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This and the 300+ comments diary on ideology from ValentinD.
News of ET's death might be a tad exaggerated after all :)

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"it was a paradigm-shifting global event."

This from a Brit in Finland - who might be expected to have a bit of perspective on things of global significance :-) Not even all Americans see it that way:


   Changing With Retreads: The Third Clinton Administration

   By RALPH NADER

November 21, 2008 "Counterpunch" -- While the liberal intelligentsia was swooning over Barack Obama during his presidential campaign, I counseled "prepare to be disappointed." His record as a Illinois state and U.S. Senator, together with the many progressive and long overdue courses of action he opposed during his campaign, rendered such a prediction unfortunate but obvious.

Now this same intelligentsia is beginning to howl over Obama's transition team and early choices to run his Administration. Having defeated Senator Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Primaries, he now is busily installing Bill Clinton's old guard. Thirty one out of forty seven people that he has named so far for transition or appointments have ties to the Clinton Administration, according to Politico. One Clintonite is quoted in the Washington Post as saying - "This isn't lightly flavored with Clintons. This is all Clintons, all the time."

Obama's "foreign policy team is now dominated by the Hawkish, old-guard Democrats of the 1990," writes Jeremy Scahill. Obama's transition team reviewing intelligence agencies and recommending appointments is headed by John Brennan and Jami Miscik, who worked under George Tenet when the CIA was involved in politicizing intelligence for, among other officials, Secretary of State Colin Powell's erroneous address before the United Nations calling for war against Iraq.

Mr. Brennan, as a government official, supported warrantless wiretapping and extraordinary rendition to torturing countries. National Public Radio reported that Obama's reversal when he voted for the revised FISA this year relied on John Brennan's advise.

For more detail on these two advisers and others recruited by Obama from the dark old days, see Democracy Now, November 17, 2008 and Jeremy Scahill, AlterNet, Nov. 20, 2008 "This is Change? 20 Hawks, Clintonites and Neocons to Watch for in Obama's White House."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21297.htm

THIS is a global paradigm shift?! Maybe you've been reading too much US media sourced election stuff :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggested - for ET's OT - "It's perhaps useful to remind ourselves about that sometimes and to try to make more conscious efforts to resist that domination and search out non US-related topics in Europe and the world". That would help a bit in the wider world too and the groups referred to in the quotation are doing their bit to resist US domination.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:46:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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