When I spoke about educating and opening doors, I meant women going against family pressure - not about discriminating bosses, not about other vulnerable people like immigrants, or disabled.

I do believe people must believe they can do it. I just love this american slogan, it worked for me, as I went myself against the current practically my whole life, and I do think it is good for the spirit. OTOH I am also fully in favour of laws against unfair inequalities, absolutely. Many times people just can't make it by themselves (even if they should believe this, as it can be a fantastic force of propulsion, and of hope - does this remind you of anyone in particular, btw? :) ).

The other issue you quote me about, was not about gender gap. What I'm saying is that far from jobs opening to women as a civil right fallen from the sky, women were practically pushed into working, after WW2! Men are pushing them into it (sometimes even against some deep longing to spend half one's life at  work), not from some special respect for gender equality, but from purely pecuniary reasons!  And even sometimes, far from being due to high cost of life, it is from pure refusal of "excessive" involvement, and even responsibility.
Just as is the case with the life expectancy numbers and work stress statistics, which show men are much more vulnerable today, rather than privileged from those superb opportunities of which women would be kept out. All this shows these issues are far more complicated than just a question of access and rights.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 at 04:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also lean to believe gender roles (and their abuse) become more and more pregnant as we go from north to south. This kind of discussions about women who would not be fundamentally different from men, the refusal of courteous gestures, I only met from northern women, Germany, Holland, US, never from the southern Europe. I never met, saw, or heard about a woman declaring about door opening by a man: "I have hands, I can open doors!" :)

This is not the subject here, but I wanted to say that I think gender polarization is much stronger in the south. But maybe my experience is subjective.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 at 04:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is true that the labour market opened up to women as a result of the war - women were needed to do the jobs that men left vacant when they went off to war.  And you can't really go back after such a big social change as that can you?  Women were proving that they could work just as men did, that they could have a greater role in wider society than just looking after the house.

The being pushed bit was the fact that women were working and thus in the public sphere/world of work, gender roles were shifting.  But there was no comparable shift in gender roles in the home.  Women were working more and still doing all the household chores and looking after the children as they did before, and men were still doing what men always did which didn't generally include housekeeping.  

So assuming that this change of women in the labour market is irreversible (for reasons of economy and choice) the gender equality bit comes in in paying women fairly and encouraging fairer sharing of roles in the home.

ValentinD:

does this remind you of anyone in particular, btw?

Are you referring to me?  I have guts and an iron will to push myself forward and I'm glad I can be a role model but as I've got older I have realised that I have been so very lucky to land in the right places at the right times.  My life could so easily be very different through no fault of my own.  Just thinking 'I can do it' and working towards that goal isn't enough.  Trying to just take opportunities doesn't work, you need to be given them sometimes.  You have to hope that somebody will give you an opportunity that you should just be able to take, like anyone else would, but you can't because of discrimination.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 at 05:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Luck is discouragingly important. I got a lot of help up when I was new to my business -- thus I've tried to be helpful wherever I can to others beginning.

It's not something one can regulate, but I hope it continues.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 25th, 2008 at 05:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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