The left, the right, theism and the political debate (Ideology alive) | 194 comments (194 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

I think we're talking past each other now. I don't want you to prove you are right. I want you to express to me what it is you are right about, give me some map of this spiritual dimension (or dimensions) -- you are saying (well, I'm saying you are saying) that you cannot experience a spiritual dimension (or be affected by it?) unless you believe in it, right? Well, then I ask - what are beliefs, how are they formed?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 09:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (4.00 / 2)

Hm.

Yes, I have the feeling that we're turning in a circle.

- What am I right about?

I don't think that I expressed it that way. If I say I am right, it seems to imply that everyone else is wrong.

Having found "Truth" is different.

The bottom line is that we go around on this planet, caught in time and space and we lack answers to the mysteries mentioned further up this thread.

The motivation to ask about life's mysteries is also and significantly nurtured by fear, essentially fear of death.

This is the reason why many people seek answers through faith, i.e. a belief in a God, gods, spirits, Gurus, etc. - It is not the same as belief in morals, tradition, family or a baseball team.
This quest for Truth in many different forms and expressions is part of human history.

- What are beliefs?

Well, that's what they are... In our quest for Truth, we encounter possible answers describing the nature of that Truth. Once we suspect to be close to the answer or we feel "touched", personally addressed, have a moment of "enlightenment" (?) - we will naturally tear consequences - from wanting to know more, questioning more to committing and staying on that "path".

I am sure that it is possible to measure brain activity during meditation and prayer, etc. and it will differ from brain activity while watching the news. And it is possible to dissect biochemical processes etc. - all this because we are humans, not robots, not fish.

- How are they formed?

I described the drivers for engaging in beliefs above.

Now, let's detach and look at it in an even more abstract way:

We come into this world, learn and use our senses. We grow and develop our intelligence as we learn. At some point, we (not everyone...) become aware that despite conquering the world with our existence, we only move within limits. We may panic and/or become curious.

What's next? We seek answers based on who we are, involving plenty of environmental factors (family, culture, tradition, sex, stars, health, social standing...). Within the limits of our existence, we venture out to find what we're looking for.

Now, some will have little choice but will follow the tradition they are born into and adopt it. Others will question this received wisdom to the point of preferring not to believe in anything or something different. Others.... -
How these beliefs are formed differs greatly, and how they will reflect in different people's lives will also vary greatly.

The common denominator of these different expressions could be God-The One-etc. - were there only ONE Truth, ONE wisdom, ONE you-name-it. It is possible to see the common ground - mysteriously forming these beliefs, beyond environmental influences, social conditioning, etc. - when you have a close look and with an open mind.

I wouldn't be surprised if this could also be proved scientifically - through comparison of brain chemistry of believers versus non-believers. :o

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 10:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

The common denominator of these different expressions could be God-The One-etc. - were there only ONE Truth, ONE wisdom, ONE you-name-it.

Do you agree that the variety of human beliefs about truth, wisdom, and you-name-it, can range from:

zero--there is no ultimate truth, wisdom, you-name-it
one--there is one ultimate truth, etc. (your position)
two--there are two truths, etc.
three--there are three truths, etc.
...to infinity--there are infinite truths, widsoms, you-name-its

--not all in the same belief system, though ;)

I don't think it is obvious that there is a common denominator to the answer(s), though there may be a common denominator (self consciousness?) for why we ask certain questions.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 11:35:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

Do you agree that the variety of human beliefs about truth, wisdom, and you-name-it, can range from:

It is obvious that it does range from... to... - I agree.

BTW: I believe that we have to deal with conflicting forces that are either good or evil. This adds to the variety of expression of 'believers'.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 12:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

What you personally believe is moot at this point, I think, as it is clear from the discussion that NO untestable belief can prove itself superior to any other untestable belief.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 12:46:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

Sorry, removing the potential harshness, I mean:

Before we discuss your, my, or any other person's belief system, I think we need to establish how a belief system interacts with the material world--how does it demonstrate itself such that it is amenable to analysis. So before you posit good and evil beings, I think it's better to continue to ponder how the for you spiritual realm(s) interact with the material. As I've understood it, you think that you must first believe. Therefore, if I don't believe in your good and bad beings they can't have effects on me, right? If you think you are possessed by one and attack me, I only know that YOU are attacking me; your claim that you are possessed might be true for you--

--in your reality tunnel!

We'd need some way, though, to bring the concept of demonic (or angelic!) possession into a place where we could understand it by its effects in the world.

You know, a volcanic eruption is pretty much there whether you believe in the volcano god or not, and what needs to be done is clear--

The believer thinks we need to immediately find thirty six pigs and kill them in size order to placate the god!

The scientist says, "You will be dead under two metres of ash before you've slaughtered the seventeenth pig."

Gah! I think this diary is broked by now--I saw a comment, was reading it, in turned into single line poetry...I could hardly make it out, turns out it was by me!

Anyways--just to say I didn't intend a harsh tone with the above, just to....hmmm...equalise our positions: you get your belief as long as everyone else is allowed theirs, no matter how strange, as long as its untestable!

Or something!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 12:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

So before you posit good and evil beings

Not good and evil beings! Good and evil forces, both present in everyone, some more devoted to one, others to the other - either by choice or without being aware of it.

Yes, this debate cannot continue like this! ;)

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 01:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 0)

What you personally believe is moot at this point, I think, as it is clear from the discussion that NO untestable belief can prove itself superior to any other untestable belief.

rg: You asked whether I thought or agreed that others could find a different truth and I replied that they did, obviously.

I'd like to clarify that judgement is not mine, and I know very little about what is true to others or why they believe that way, but I'm sure that when I talk about Truth, I mean THE Truth. There is an absolute quality to it, but I cannot prove it. I believe that it does reveal itself to the believer and that it will reveal itself to everyone.

That's my worldview, Weltanschauung, ...

I don't intend to offend anyone by it, and I guess that I have really said enough about it at this point.

I don't want to "run away" :) from the debate; I'm sure we'll get back to this topic in a different diary.
I'm about to drop out of the diary box anyway...

BTW: If you look for facts, and maybe explore history as I had suggested, focus on Israel, Jewish history, God's way with His people and then, how and whether history as we have known it for 2000 years matches Old Testament prophecy, or not. The original interface between God and our world were His people, the Jews.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 1)

The original interface between God and our world were His people, the Jews.

Is that THE Truth?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 07:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE (none / 0)

From what I have learnt and understood in this life: yes.

For me there is no contradiction when a Hindu will describe the interface between us and the spiritual world differently. The spiritual world is vast, but I have found no more convincing narrative that both describes and explains human history, giving a reason for our existence.

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Sat Nov 29th, 2008 at 03:53:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The left, the right, theism and the political debate (Ideology alive) | 194 comments (194 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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