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linca: Why use "brand name" when "reputation" works fairly well ?

Because he is trying to brand his theory of course!  ;-)

And it's not the theory that is Orwellian, but rather the overuse of managerial buzzwords, of which this is only an example...

I don't know.  To me "Orwellian" implies an ulterior motive on the part of a society's dominant power structure to influence popular culture and thinking that reinforce that power structure.  I don't see how the extension of the concepts like "branding" or "rational-choice theory" to describe the behavior of 18th century pirates enhances the status, legitimacy, or hold of the dominant power structure in today's society, however you want to interpret that.

What if someone tried to argue that "branding" and "rational-choice theory" were used by Hitler to build the Third Reich?  Would you call this an "Orwellian overuse of managerial buzzwords"?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 07:35:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To me "Orwellian" implies an ulterior motive on the part of a society's dominant power structure to influence popular culture and thinking that reinforce that power structure

Well, I tend to believe there is such an attempt... Among many examples, see this, on how economics is confused with companies, and entrepreneurs the only valid actors in that field. And need I talk about the interactions between the US's wealthy class and many Friedmanist economists ?

Orwellian language is not only about extending concepts, but also impoverishing language by losing precisions ; with fewer words available, you make thinking outside the frame imposed by the words that are left much harder. For example, it means researchers about 17th century pirates have to use such buzzwords for PR rather than precise words that have meanings relevant to the time and place ; and the social sciences have already enough problems as it is with imprecise vocabulary.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 07:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is an interesting take on "Orwellian":

Simpler Terms; If It's 'Orwellian', It's Probably Not

... as advertisers have known for a long time, no audience is easier to beguile than one that is smugly confident of its own sophistication. The word ''Orwellian'' contributes to that impression. Like ''propaganda,'' it implies an aesthetic judgment more than a moral one. Calling an expression Orwellian means not that it's deceptive but that it's crudely deceptive.

Today, the real damage isn't done by the euphemisms and circumlocutions that we're likely to describe as Orwellian. ''Ethnic cleansing,'' ''revenue enhancement,'' ''voluntary regulation,'' ''tree-density reduction,'' ''faith-based initiatives,'' ''extra affirmative action,'' ''single-payer plans'' -- these terms may be oblique, but at least they wear their obliquity on their sleeves.

Rather, the words that do the most political work are simple ones -- ''jobs and growth,'' ''family values'' and ''color-blind'' not to mention ''life'' and ''choice.'' But concrete words like these are the hardest ones to see through. They're opaque when you hold them up to the light.

Orwell knew that, of course. ''To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle'' -- not what you'd call an Orwellian sentiment, but very like the man.

That second to last paragraph also touches on the danger of imprecision, although perhaps from a different angle.

But on the most basic level, pirate "brand image" is not an Orwellian use of language for the very simple reason that the author is not advocating or justifying piracy, either overtly or covertly.  If he were being Orwellian in the use of his language, those would be the aims of his unconventional use of such terms as "brand image", etc.

Out of curiosity, would you also consider this characterization to be Orwellian?

Seventeenth- and 18th-century pirates were pioneers, in a certain way, of constitutional democracy. They had checks and balances aboard their ship, they had an early form of quasi-judicial review, and they were democratic, which was virtually unheard of in the Western world at that time.

How about the claim that pirates had pioneered a sophisticated system of "worker's compensation"?

What is the difference between applying these more terms and applying terms like "branding" and "brand image" to what the pirates were doing, if any?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 09:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But on the most basic level, pirate "brand image" is not an Orwellian use of language for the very simple reason that the author is not advocating or justifying piracy, either overtly or covertly.

I do not see how that is relevant ; what feels Orwellian is not the promotion of piracy but that of enterprises' buzzspeak. And I do not say these are the aim of the speaker ; indeed, the particularly Orwellian moment is not when the propagandist uses Orwellian language, but when others use it, and find it normal.

How about the claim that pirates had pioneered a sophisticated system of "worker's compensation"?

This is a somewhat sloppy anachronism, too, but it is less part of, well, company buzzspeak. Which is one it doesn't feel as much as an Orwellian moment. And also, it is, in fact, what seems really new in what the pirates were doing, and thus the anachronism is the point ; whereas reputation through massacre has a much, much longer history.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 09:40:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
linca: what feels Orwellian is not the promotion of piracy but that of enterprises' buzzspeak.

I think this is where we differ.

You seem to believe that corporate/economic buzz-speak is intrinsically Orwellian, even when the ends to which such terms are applied by the speaker/writer/thinker are politically neutral.

I believe that for something to be Orwellian, there has to be an intent to deceive or distort.  In the case of this particular economist (putting aside the merits of his theory or lack thereof for now), he is not trying to deceive or distort, but rather to inform and elucidate.

But this does raise an interesting point:  When the mere use of certain terms reinforces the legitimacy and/or appeal of an ideology or culture that supports the dominant power structure (even if that usage creates potentially bad associations for those terms), then does using those terms become intrinsically Orwellian (because no matter how and when and to what end the speaker uses them, they serve to reinforce the dominant power structure)?

So if we were living in a society that was not dominated by corporate power, using the words "brand image" and "branding" would not be Orwellian, or at least not as muuch.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 09:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But this does raise an interesting point:  When the mere use of certain terms reinforces the legitimacy and/or appeal of an ideology or culture that supports the dominant power structure (even if that usage creates potentially bad associations for those terms), then does using those terms become intrinsically Orwellian (because no matter how and when and to what end the speaker uses them, they serve to reinforce the dominant power structure)?

Using (in an imprecise way : because after all, the original meaning is still valid) buzz speak when the speaker does not intend to promote it feels much more Orwellian than when there is such a promotional intent.

I believe that for something to be Orwellian, there has to be an intent to deceive or distort

Because the problem with Orwellian speech is not its use as propaganda, easily recognisable as such, but but when indeed its formulations and simplifications become part of common discourse, orienting thoughts its way... I'd find it much more worrying if the economist was using "brand name" without being aware of its impreciseness rather than because he was fishing for some speaking tour in business conferences...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 10:15:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you first need to back up your assertion that he is using "brand name" imprecisely.

Here is the paper in which he develops the idea (I have not read it, just the Scientific American interview):

Pirational Choice: The Economics of Infamous Pirate Practices

linca: Because the problem with Orwellian speech is not its use as propaganda, easily recognisable as such, but but when indeed its formulations and simplifications become part of common discourse, orienting thoughts its way.

Here I think you are presuming people guilty until proven innocent of being intellectually compromised by corporate buzz speak.  I believe the burden of proof goes the other way around.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 10:48:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have the time to do an actual etymological research on the meaning of the concept of "brand name", beyond noting that apparently "brand" got its modern meaning after the last pirates where hanged, and skimming the paper, it didn't seem the author wasted any time justifying the use of modern economics concepts (and the applicability of such concepts to other periods of history is at least debatable).

I'll also note that the author is a member of the Georges Mason University Department of Economics, which was heavily funded by right wing fundations. Giving a bit more of that Orwellian vibe.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 11:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
marco:
 I don't see how the extension of the concepts like "branding" or "rational-choice theory" to describe the behavior of 18th century pirates enhances the status, legitimacy, or hold of the dominant power structure in today's society, however you want to interpret that.

Isn't he actively making a case that the dominant power structures are essentially piratical and beyond the law, and will kill you if you resist?

It may not enhance the popularity if the message, but I'm not sure that it's detrimental to its status and persuasive impact.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 01:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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