Display:
Well yes, the factuality of the message seems quite obvious to me, and I made it a habit of being very careful before assigning conspiration theories to a statement. And then, instead of focusing on all possible malevolent implications of a phrase (which can  sometimes be "discovered" in great numbers), I concentrate on the facts, if they are correct or not.

For instance if had Sarkozy only spoken of duties and obligations (say, of immigrants) and not of "rights, but also duties", I would have not agreed.
When his statements are balanced and factual (see also this phrase: we are a secular state, but that does not mean we are so in opposition to religions or to churches;
or this one: a psychiatric hospital is not a prison, but still one should not be able to come and go as one pleases - approx.quot.), I cannot not agree with them.
Frankly, I hoped for some criticism from the left, for the sake of safety - maybe they will see something I did not. No trace, alas, except slogans and outcries against the "dangerous monster".

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 02:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes, the factuality of the message seems quite obvious to me, and I made it a habit of being very careful before assigning conspiration theories to a statement. And then, instead of focusing on all possible malevolent implications of a phrase (which can  sometimes be "discovered" in great numbers), I concentrate on the facts, if they are correct or not.

This is not a conspiracy theory, nor an attempt to fabricate malevolent connotations. The slogan is a direct plagiarisation of one of the chief slogans of a very recent campaign to undermine secular democracy in Europe.

Would you also scrupulously evaluate the truth or falsehood of the statement "arbeit macht frei" without attaching "frivolous" historical connotations to it and proposing "conspiracy theories" about the person using that slogan?

For instance if had Sarkozy only spoken of duties and obligations (say, of immigrants) and not of "rights, but also duties", I would have not agreed.
When his statements are balanced and factual

The problem with that statement is that immigrants already have duties as well as rights. So either the statement is true but trivial (like saying "the sun goes up in the East, but it also goes down in the West"), or it is interesting, but alarming, because the emphasis on duties implies that he thinks that more attention should be paid to the duties of immigrants than to their rights (and/or to the duties of other citizens).

(see also this phrase: we are a secular state, but that does not mean we are so in opposition to religions or to churches;

Again, this can be true but trivial (the definition of a secular state is that it is not in support or opposition to churches). Or it can be interesting and problematic, because he conveniently leaves out half the definition, implying that he's not against the state supporting churches, only against the state opposing them.

or this one: a psychiatric hospital is not a prison, but still one should not be able to come and go as one pleases - approx.quot.),

Again, this doesn't pass the "duh!" test. No psychiatric hospital permits patients to come and go as they please if they are a danger to themselves or others - that would be a direct violation of medical ethics. So either he's stating complete banalities again, or he's implying that he wishes to impose restrictions that are not medically warranted.

You're perfectly free, of course, to imagine that Sarko spends his time uttering complete trivialities. I fail to see how that makes him an admirable politician, but hey, he's not my president anyway.

But I hardly think you can blame people for thinking that he actually has a point when he opens his mouth. And that if he doesn't come right out and tells us what his point is, we'll have to give our best guess.

Frankly, I hoped for some criticism from the left, for the sake of safety - maybe they will see something I did not. No trace, alas, except slogans and outcries against the "dangerous monster".

Slogans cannot be criticised with substance until and unless they are turned into actual policy. That's the whole rhetorical point of slogans - to provide a confirmation of one's "values" to core voters, that cannot be challenged on its merit, because it doesn't have any merit to be challenged on yet.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 05:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The emphasizing is on both sides. Just like the many examples I gave. It is you who choose to see it as a slogan. They might be trivial (melo already pointed  that out) in theory, but reality is often more complex.
For instance, in France, secularism implies opposition to religion and church, for many historical reasons.
A bit like me being an atheist would mean I am necessarily opposed to any kind of faithful, and not simply outside the faith spectrum. Or like a pragmatist would by definition be opposed to all ideologies (and attacked by all ideologists) when he's rather outside and above the political spectrum.

My point was to show things are more nuanced than simply saying Sarkozy is an ideological monster. We don't agree on positive discrimination for instance. He's also beginning to promote the idea that banks should provide cheap loans for the poor, without indicating who will have to cover the risk. The sloganeering part seems to be rather leftish.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 at 08:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For instance, in France, secularism implies opposition to religion and church, for many historical reasons.

Bah! Even the most casual tourist can see that the Catholic Church holds a privileged position in French society - de facto if not de jure. If that's your definition of repression against the church, then you have a somewhat curious view of the legitimate role of religious groups in a democratic society.

My point was to show things are more nuanced than simply saying Sarkozy is an ideological monster.

I never said that Sarko was an ideological monster. I just pointed out to you that the slogans you cite give very reasonable cause for complaint and concern from the left, because they belie a right-wing ideological position. At least, if they mean anything at all - but let's be generous to Sarko and assume that he's not a total air-head (or at least that not all of his handlers are...).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 05:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are obviously not very knowledgeable concerning both Sarko and the catholic church in France. It smells like you got certain ideas from certain other people here we both know :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 09:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll freely admit to not being very knowledgeable about Sarko and his policies - so all I have to go by is the slogans you provide, and they make a lot of little red flags go up all by themselves.

As for the Catholic Church, they certainly hold a less privileged position than they do in most formerly Catholic countries... But they are hardly the oppressed dissidents that their own propaganda tries to paint them as.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What were those slogans again ?...

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These, for example.

There are more floating around the thread, but these will suffice as examples.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are less slogans and more like balanced, pragmatical, two-sided assessment of practical real-life situations. You may see them as a slogan though.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 01:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Occasional Series