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Labour unions need to rework themselves, I'm afraid, because we do need unions even more now than before. The history of unions in the US shows how complex this topic is.

Is there an assault on benefits? I've seen nothing to justify this, maybe our experience isn't the same.

Sarkozy is for instance actively supporting regulatory protections against social dumping btw, which made The Economist (DoDo's favourite paper :) ) quite angry at him.

The problem with ideologies is that they provide a much more "factual" view of the world, they have their own arguments, quite logically articulated and making sense  in a certain way.
For instance a big argument I saw for deregulation was that globalisation needs freedom of movement for goods and capitals. Hence arguments like those for less protectionism, less financial regulation etc based on this idea that globalisation will function better.

Neoliberals argue now that this helped big time to combat the poverty in 3rd world countries. Neocons also argued that the war in Iraq was motivated by a desire to free Iraqis and help them discover democracy.
These are typical examples of reasonings that bend the reality to fit ideologies. It still looks logical, but in reality it is originating in an ideology.
When Greenspan had no more arguments against demands for more regulation of derivatives, he used brute force and helped strip the respective congress commission of its regulating powers. Arguments were just pretexts. (there was an article in NY Times about this).

So I think ideologies decline, but we're not there yet, there is still resistance, but we hope it will be overturned! :)


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 06:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour unions need to rework themselves, I'm afraid,

Why? And How?

You haven't made any coherent case for what's wrong with the way labour unions work. All you've done is assert that they are excessively ideological and that they shouldn't interfere with the political process (which political process? as defined by who?).

Every time you've come up with a concrete example, there has been a perfectly valid pragmatic justification.

  • You say that unions shouldn't care about work conditions in China, because that's none of their business. In a world with capital controls, that's a debatable point (I happen to disagree, but it's a debatable point). In a world without capital controls, it's pure, mean-spirited nonsense.

  • You say that unions shouldn't care about outsourcing and maintaining a civil service. Yet empirically - pragmatically, if you will - outsourcing and hollowing out the civil service almost universally leads to worse working conditions and a downward wage pressure. (It also often leads to more expensive and lower quality service, but that's an aside.)

  • You say that unions shouldn't care about immigration policy and discrimination, yet immigration policy directly affects the supply of labour (and the ease with which such labour can organise), and discriminatory policies tend to create a poorly organised underclass. Both will put downward pressure on wages.

  • You say that unions shouldn't care about environmental policy. Yet employees are usually hit harder by environmental degradation than employers, on account of them being poorer.

And that's leaving quite aside that union members are citizens as well as labourers, and that every sane citizen should be concerned about these policies.

The history of unions in the US shows how complex this topic is.

The history of unions in the US shows that systematic union-busting works exceedingly well.

The US unions were systematically persecuted at the federal, state and local level. Through legislation, through a concerted propaganda effort, through workplace-level union-busting, by deliberately race- and religion-baiting at every political level. That was a case of deliberate, ideological activism by right-wing extremists.

If you have a suggestion for how US labour unions could have resisted that, I'm all ears. So far, though, your only input into that discussion has been a refrain of "reform, reform, reform." But there's a conflict of interests here that cannot be resolved by pragmatic compromise, because the right-wing extremists perpetrating the union-busting would settle for nothing less than the total obliteration of organised labour. You cannot negotiate or compromise with people who want to drown government in a bathtub; you have to purge them from the body politic.

Is there an assault on benefits?

In 1980, tertiary education was free France, the UK, all of Scandinavia and all of Germany. In 2000, the UK and more than half of all German länder charge "tuition fees." To take just one very concrete example.

The list goes on with privatisation of health care, price hikes for railroad tickets, cutbacks in unemployment subsidies, outright theft of workers' pensions, below-inflation indexing of public pension schemes, below-inflation indexing of unemployment subsidies, tighter applicability requirements for unemployment subsidies, cutbacks in prescription drug subsidies, cutbacks in essential public services (railroads, schools, water, sewage, electricity).

I have a diary in the pipelines detailing another assault on Danish unemployment subsidies, and I'll leave the rest of the list as an exercise to the reader. Simply browsing ET should more than suffice for examples from France and the UK.

Sarkozy is for instance actively supporting regulatory protections against social dumping btw

Sarko makes noises about signing sternly worded letters. But until and unless I see the actual policy, I remain skeptical. As long as Sarko is palling around with pathological liars like Gordon Brown and Anders Fogh, he has the burden of proof to show that he's acting in good faith. You yourself conceded that politics needs to be argued at the policy level, not at the slogan level.

As for your examples of neocons/neolibs arguing from ideology, there's the small matter of fact that the neolibs and neocons were flat out wrong on the facts. And we knew pretty much precisely how and where they were wrong in considerable detail and well ahead of time. No, let's not mince words here: They were so full of shit that their ears started smelling. You have yet to make a remotely convincing case that this true for those that you accuse of being "left-wing ideologues" (and as an aside, you have yet to actually identify any, aside from labour unions - who these days are more centrist than the centre).

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Nov 29th, 2008 at 12:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Jake,

I'm not going to enter a detailed discussion about unions. My point was never "against unions", nor to say that all unions would be leftwing or extremist. I gave an example of two such unions in France, in order to show how we're not even allowed to call them that without getting shut down by leftwing ideologists.
The same holds true about globalisation or "the markets know best". Even before opening our mouth, missiles fly against the miscreant.

I could also comment long and large on the assault on benefits. At least in France, one can hardly say that. If you choose to see it as a tendency, or even an organized attack, it's your right, I tend to me more moderate and more nuanced about this (too).

Finally, neocon/neolib arguments might have been clearly fake for you, but not for everyone out there, which is why Bush got elected (besides fear mongering) and Greenspan was praised by both right and left administrations.

(btw I am glad you at least agree Sarkozy makes the correct noises; we're going to have to wait a bit and  see what will come out of it all)

V

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 08:49:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not going to enter a detailed discussion about unions.

You never do...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 09:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because I won't allow myself dragged into that, when the point I'm trying to make is not that. Do read my reply to Jake: I have nothing against unions, except when they promote class warfare. I have nothing against economists, except when they pretend to make a society moulded on their own desires.

Btw the point of this post was technocratic bureaucracy, it is sad that instead of noting that (maybe even commenting), all you and Jake care about is my pretended political bias.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 09:53:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unions promote class warfare? How, where and when pray tell? Last time I checked, it was the top 10 % of the wealth distribution that was waging class war on everybody else. Or perhaps you think unions are at fault for actually fighting the war that the fatcats started instead of rolling over and playing dead like the so-called social democratic parties in parliament?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 11:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I never said unions are at fault, I don't think they should fight any way.

And then, I don't remmeber having ever even mentioned unions in the diary post above (which I recommend to you, in case you didn't read it yet).

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 04:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you seriously saying that unions should refuse to defend themselves when subjected to a concerted attack by neoliberal fanatics? Are you seriously saying that unions should not oppose the dismantling of civilised society by people who want to throw us back to the 19th century?

Something tells me that you don't have such a lenient attitude towards fanatics who wish to impose Shari'a...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 07:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I could also comment long and large on the assault on benefits. At least in France, one can hardly say that.

So stealing train drivers' pensions (pensions that were contractually deferred salaries - i.e. money that they had an indisputable right to) isn't an assault on benefits? I wonder what does qualify.

Finally, neocon/neolib arguments might have been clearly fake for you, but not for everyone out there, which is why Bush got elected (besides fear mongering) and Greenspan was praised by both right and left administrations.

Bush was not elected, and Greenspan was never praised by left-wing administrations. Bush stole at least one of "his" elections (and American democracy is nothing to write home about in the first place), and Greenspan was praised by right-wing administrations and far-right extremists. Because that's all that were there to praise him in the American scene.

Unless of course you subscribe to a rather peculiar kind of political relativism, whereby Lenin could rightly be called a centrist, because he was right in the centre of the Soviet political spectrum (between Trotsky to the left and Stalin to the right).

None of which changes the fact that the neocons/neolibs were wrong on the facts to an extent that you haven't even tried to argue that the left is.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Nov 30th, 2008 at 11:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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