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I'm still confused. Cash is a financial instrument with some performance relative to the inflation rate. If during deflationary times (say 10% annually)  I borrow $100 at a negative interest rate (say -5%), then I have to pay back $95 a year from now--but that $95 is then worth 10% more than it was at the time of borrowing. I have lost 5% in the transaction, so I have LOST money by holding cash.

I am not being a wise guy, I seriously am confused about this.

by asdf on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 08:30:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You haven't lost money -you have made $5, at the new rate. What you are saying would be true if you were to exchange the $100 for some goods, then repay the loan.

But the killer situation is to borrow for holding.

Compared to not doing anything, here is what happens:
At T=0, you borrow $100.  You don't change your spending patterns in any way.
Then, at T=1, you repay your loan with a mere $95. Yes, those $95 are worth more than the $100 you borrowed at T=0. But simply holding the cash made those $100 of yore turn into $100 of today -more valuable. So you are still left with $5 more than in the situation where you did not borrow, at zero risk (in fact, at negative risk, since the institution might collapse and never require those $95), for not doing anything.

OK, it's not quite true: somebody may steal those banknotes in the meantime. So you need someplace safe to hold them. But any rate negative by more than the risk of theft won't work.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 09:05:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose it is easier to think about from the banker's viewpoint.

Case 1: Inflation rate is 5%, interest rate is 10%. I loan somebody $100; at the end of a year he or she pays back $110. I have gained $10 of cash due to interest, and lost $5 of value due to inflation. Net gain of $5.

Case 2: Inflation rate is 0%, interest rate is 5%. I loan $100; get back $105. I have gained $5 in cash, not lost or gained any value. Net gain of $5.

Case 3: Inflation rate is -5%, interest rate is 0%. I loan $100, get back $100. I have not lost or gained any cash, but have gained $5 of value due to deflation. Net gain of $5.

Case 4: inflation rate is -10%, interest rate is -5%. I loan $100, get back $95. I have lost $5 of cash, but have gained $10 in value due to inflation. Net gain of $5.

What is wrong with this argument?

by asdf on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because in case 4, not loaning has a net gain of €10 ; loaning at a negative rate is certainly worse than not loaning. So loaning won't happen.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm. Ok, but if the banker DID loan, he would make the same amount of money. So the problem is to get out of the deflationary stalling of the economy, which is exactly the problem today. To do so, one tries

Case 5: Inflation rate is -10%, interest rate is now adjusted by the government to -10%. I loan $100, get back $90. I have lost $10 of cash, but have gained $10 in value due to inflation. Net gain of $0 and there is risk. So I don't make loans in this case, either...

Hmmm.

by asdf on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. In case 4, if the banker loans, at the end of the period, he has €95 ; if he doesn't, he has €100

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:54:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if you could force the bank to loan you wouldn't get out of it, since the money would not then be spent. It would be held, to benefit from the negative interest rate.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 4th, 2008 at 12:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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