European Tribune

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Remember Benjamin Franklin's line: "A republic, if you can keep it."

Rome started as a republic, then turned into an empire. An empire that inevitably collapsed, as all empires have. Always have. Always will.

Better try your best to revert to that republic thing... if you still can, and if you can keep it...

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Wed Nov 5th, 2008 at 03:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would Rome not have collapsed as a Republic?

Roman culture wasn't a true republic so much as a patriarchy, and personal notions of family honour and ambition drove a four hundred year imperial expansion spree. Rome was never likely to remain stable because sons always had to outdo their fathers to increase the family's glory and social standing. The roots of that were already present long before the generation of Pompey, Crassus and Caesar.

Stability won't be possible as long as the aim of every true aristocrat is honour in battle and the limitless accumulation of personal wealth. It doesn't matter what the official title of a political system is - if it has an aristocratic caste, then war and empire are inevitable, for as long as the rest of the population and the available resources can support them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Nov 5th, 2008 at 05:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Correct my logic if you would.  It's been decades since I took a Symbolic Logic class from the head of the Philosophy Dept. Prof. Jan Ludwig (great guy; follower of Wittgenstein):
... if it has an aristocratic caste, then war and empire are inevitable ...

So if sane people wish to eliminate "war and empire", the "aristocratic class" has to go, by some means, no?

If so, can we count on any kind of epiphany within their class soon which will bring about their voluntary ... goneness?


The music's over. I've turned out the lights. Bye Bye.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Nov 5th, 2008 at 05:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any Republic that can last as long as the Roman, and any empire that can last as long, must have been quite stable. Considering the territory the empire covered, it is amazing that it lasted as long as it did. The geography and ethnic makeup of Europe are not exactly friendly to lasting empires, as everything that followed Rome shows.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 05:12:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the Roman civilization lasted as long as it could grow - as such it was not stable.

On the rest, yes, I agree with you.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 05:21:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It took four centuries after the end of its growth to actually crumble - and for much of that time was pretty stable. And then there's the argument that the Byzantine empire was a continuation of the roman civilization...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 05:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depending how you define growth, The roman empires last expansion waxs either the anexation of Palmyra in 194AD, or the capture of Nisibis in 298 AD

The empire can really be seen to crumble in either 337AD with the split into east and west, or 376AD when Valens allowed the Visigoths to settle.

That isn't 4 centuries

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 05:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My - not necessarily conventional - take on it is that as the empire became bigger it effectively split into semi-autonomous regions, and the individuals within them began to compete with each other locally, where previously they might have been able to compete within the republican mainstream.

This meant they didn't have access to the full Rome-based military and political machine. After the start of empire the emperor had a monopoly on that - which did make it less effective and less flexible.

Effectively if you wanted the top job you got it by taking down the emperor, and not by winning new territory. So the emperor became enemy number one, and energy that could have been spent on expansion was either diverted to internal wars of succession or monopolised by emperors who were trying to maintain their position.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 06:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll have to ask my house expert about that, she's busy doing a classics masters.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 07:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Palmyra had already been part of the roman empire an hundred years earlier ; from the second century onward there were no lasting large land acquisition. The fourth century was much more peaceful than the third ; the settling of the Visigoths wasn't the first time the Roman Empire had "welcomed" barbarians...

And of course it depends how we define "stable". Civilization of the western Mediterranean changed as much between -100 and 100 as it changed between 300 and 500...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Nov 6th, 2008 at 07:38:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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