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I think your request for examples is reasonable, especially as you are not putting it in a confrontational way, and examples can be a good way of helping others to understand what some people are concerned about.

Unfortunately the search function on ET doesn't work, and so it can be extremely difficult to find examples which prove the point I was making.  (also my memory for the exact context of a remark is often poor).

However I do recall several members being chased away, some permanently, and others having extremely hurt feelings after some very bruising experiences. This sometimes involves ad hominem attacks, sometimes just sneering or sarcastic comments, and more often just a dismissal of the point of view being taken.

A very minor recently example effecting me would be a comment on my last diary: poemless:

But seriously, this is an oversimplification and does not really illustrate an appreciation for the relationship between people and their leaders outside the world of Hollywood cartoons.

Having spent a lifetime studying "the relationship between people and their leaders" I didn't take kindly to being attacked for having a cartoon level of appreciation of such relationships especially as I didn't see any evidence being produced to justify that assertion.

I don't want to make a big deal of that example -it was at the very minor end of things - but it was recent enough for me to find the direct source without undue difficulty.  What disturbs me more is that I have come across quite a few ET members now -in off-line conversations - who have felt extremely hurt at one time or another. I have been there myself and was shocked at the lack of understanding of best practice dispute resolution procedures and fair process I encountered.

I don't want to go there again either, except to say that I still think ET is, on balance, one of the best sites for civil discourse around.  That doesn't stop me looking for a better one, and if I find one I won't be hanging around, because I don't see any recognition of the problem, or progress being made in improving this aspect of ET.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 04:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would agree - but it is often a question of tone leading to misperceptions. I seem to recall a long comment thread on drugs, with a lot of quite contrasting views. I know that you and I were quite far apart on the issues - as far as I recall - correct me if I am wrong, but we were free to make our points. The 'tone' was different. Overall the thread was a quite open exchange of views in which everybody learned something imo. I know I did.

It was the type of exchange that I enjoy - perhaps influenced by the fact that it is a subject about which I know something and in which I am interested ;-) But similarly 'toned' exchanges have taken place on other non-standard themes and they all add to the richness of ET imo.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 05:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea - I vaguely remember - but you're often wrong on things and it doesn't cause the slightest offense!  :-)

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 05:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 05:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, and without commenting on your other diary Frank, I thought poemless' "appreciation" meant more like "holding in high esteem", and doesn't refer to your competence, but to your looking down on the said relationship, somehow. ?

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 05:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the context of that diary, and comment thread, I don't think that interpretation is tenable, and poemless didn't suggest that interpretation in subsequent discussion.  However, the very fact you read it that way shows how easily misunderstandings can arise when there is only a keyboard and not the full range of visual and tonal cues we use to establish meaning and intent in face to face conversations.  I do think that is a major part of the problem with 99% of disputes which arise here.  I didn't notice any spats in the many lively conversations which took place at our Paris meet-up last month, though the sunshine and the copious amounts of wine might have played a role in that!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 06:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
lol !
One more reason to keep our calm and remember all this when we're about to reply impulsively to a supposed attack.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 07:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
Unfortunately the search function on ET doesn't work, and so it can be extremely difficult to find examples which prove the point I was making.

You can always google a specifik site by adding it as a search term. For example a google search containing site:eurotrib.com will only give you results on ET.

Often this is superior to sites own search functions.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Nov 9th, 2008 at 08:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the tip.  Why don't we have this as a standard search button on Eurotrib?

Oops - I just googled my own name in Eurorib and it came up with 12k results.  No it can't be. It can't be!  I'm not that sad to have contributed 12k comments am I?

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 06:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many, many, many duplicates. Try to think of all the way a single comment in a deep thread can be seen...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 06:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i.e. as a comment in a thread, on recent comments, on Frank's comments etc.???  How can a search function screen out such duplicates?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 06:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or as a member of the thread provoked by the first comment, as a member of the thread provoked by the answer to the first comment, etc...

An inhouse search function wouldn't have such problem ; it could also be possible to use robot.txt to tell google to only index certain pages, and not others, but at the risk of losing some referrals, i.e. links that wouldn't go to those pages. I also have the impression that Scoop's URL have duplication (i.e. the same page can be accessed through various URLs), which is bad for a good ranking. Indeed, "numbered" URLs are bad from this point of view, too ; that's a secondary feature request for ET 2.0.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 07:50:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Linca has a good comment from the perspective of ET application. From the user perspective - solving the particular problem of finding a particular comment - there are more functions in the Google Advanced search, in particular timestamp (though it annoys me that it is so crude), more search terms and the option of not including finds that has a particular search term.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 01:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a site Google. See just under Search.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 02:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must be slow - but  can't find it

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 07:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You might be looking for a box, it is a link.

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A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 10:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I repeatedly forget where it is and have to look for it each time!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 12:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.  There so much stuff which is just part of the furniture and I never notice it.  I didn't even think to look there - I looked everywhere else!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 02:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A very minor recently example effecting me would be a comment on my last diary: poemless:

    But seriously, this is an oversimplification and does not really illustrate an appreciation for the relationship between people and their leaders outside the world of Hollywood cartoons.

Having spent a lifetime studying "the relationship between people and their leaders" I didn't take kindly to being attacked for having a cartoon level of appreciation of such relationships especially as I didn't see any evidence being produced to justify that assertion.

You expected evidence Frank ? !! You implicitly impose a rationalist framework ! :-) Given there was no evidence to support the comment why take it so seriously ? Why not just ask for the evidence ? - but be prepared to duck if you do so here :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 01:11:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The notion of evidence is not unique to positivist/rationalist frameworks.  Indeed positivism insists that evidence be measurable i.e. quantifiable, something not always required in other paradigms.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 07:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"The notion of evidence is not unique to positivist/rationalist frameworks."

Indeed (though I wasn't referring to a "positivist" one) and the request for evidence is seen as entirely reasonable in many areas. Cf.  "someone"'s comment for the dangers of not relying on evidence.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 04:25:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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