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My only beef with the above is treating Israel as monolythic. Even if most of the Jewish population and almost all political forces in Israel support the invasion, when looking at the purposes served by this invasion, more partisan reasons (er.g. upcoming elections and an opposition leader previously trying to profile himself as a hardliner) may be more instructive than national interests...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 4th, 2009 at 04:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think in this instance, you could call it monolithic, in that the Israeli establishment, representing the Israeli people, is the power that is promoting this. This is not a faction of the Israeli political community, it is all of them; there is no dissent here.

Of course, you can then argue the extent to which you can conflate the politicians of Israel with all Israelis, just as you can argue that the decision by the Westminster establishment in the UK to go to war with Iraq did not represent the whole will of the British people.

But, in a democratic society, we are, to all intents and purposes, involved in a representative government. We send people to parliament, both here and in Israel, to represent us, not reflect us. They decide in our name with our consent, if not with our agreement. Yes, I dissented from the Iraq war, but it was done in mine and 60 million other citizen's name and no hair-splitting can really deny a certain burden of, if not responsibility, then at least I will admit that our part of the invasion effort was unequivocally British and there is an association there.

So, yes, I will acknowledge that there is a peace movement in Israel, I will agree that not all Israelis agree with what is being done in their name. But it is still being done in their name and it is not unreasonable or unfair to describe the sentiments behind these actions as Israeli. And Eno's use is not a monolithic use, but entirely legitimate.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jan 4th, 2009 at 06:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think in this instance, you could call it monolithic, in that the Israeli establishment, representing the Israeli people, is the power that is promoting this. This is not a faction of the Israeli political community, it is all of them; there is no dissent here.

You did not get what I said. As I stated explicitely, the point is not that there would be disagreement about attacking Gaza. The point is that the governing forces chose to escalate the situation into a major invasion to play tough before the elections, to catch the wind from Bibi Netanyahu's sail, who attacked them from the right. It can be this narrow-minded. And it happened before.

Let's remember Operation "The Grapes of Wrath", the 1996 bombing of South Lebanon most infamous for the shelling of the Qana shelter with 106 dead. That operation was ordered by the then interim government of Shimon Peres, who wanted to show himself strong before new elections. He still lost -- incidentally, to Netanyahu...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:19:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they did it to bolster their national security credentials then they're losing, Netenyaho has seen his projected seats rise from 11 to 16 since this started.

It's the same mistake Democrats keep making in the US. You can't be more hawkish than republicans so why get into that game (yes Hillary, we do mean you) ? however democrats can be much more sensible and balanced, which is why Obama got elected.

So if the Israeli centre/liberal (laughable as that sounds) want to beat the far-right, they won't do it by starting a war.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 07:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Polls as of January 1 show 52% of Israelis in favor of air strikes on Gaza. An additional 19% support the ground invasion.

Poll: Most Israelis support continuing Gaza military op.

This is down from 81% in favor of "Operation Cast Lead" at its outset, but at 71% it's still a vast majority.

by Loefing on Sun Jan 4th, 2009 at 07:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Upon second reading, do you, too, think that contradicts what I said?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes
by Loefing on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 05:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How?

In light of your focus on "partisan reasons (er.g. upcoming elections".

Thems is mighty hollow pretexts, given the broader picture.

by Loefing on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the "broader picture" is the pretext and the "partisan reasons" are the real picture.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the real "broader picture" for you.

Map which hardly needs any additional commentary. Or if it does, let me know.

Livni and Barak's political ambitions, in full accord with their right wing counterparts, are to rid the region of native Palestinians.

Why is there any further question as to what the bestial Gaza offensive is about?  

by Loefing on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 07:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be compared with the proportion of Arab Israelis. Unless of course pollsters don't even poll them.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 at 04:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when the slaughtering is over.

Seriously, any israeli who is not screaming murder at this point is an accomplice.

You can't say "never again" and not go ballistic.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.

by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 03:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I debate minutiae when I want. The slaughtering is unlikely to stop permanently for the foreseeable future anyway. I think you failed to see the even stronger indictment in the election calculation motivation I suggested.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:30:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there really any other reason for the invasion than Livni's need to display the size of her cojones?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 06:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Er, what?!

 

by Loefing on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 07:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
New prime minister, new invasion. Isn't that how it works? Livni has been criticised in the past for being indecisive, apparently, and now she's being more hawkish that the Chiefs of Staff, which helps her in the upcoming elections. Both Labour and Kadima have been making gains on Likud since the invasion began.


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 5th, 2009 at 07:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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