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Fair trade, not free trade, that is the way to go.

Unfettered free trade has been a disaster for workers in both the developed and the developing world.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 09:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I beg to differ. Surely workers in both the developed and the developing world are much better off today than 30 years ago, and this is very much due to free and unfettered trade.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 09:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
who lost their land due to trade agreements and have been forced to migrate north for jobs with no legal standing or protections.

You can see the same template in effect in Africa too.

If workers are better off today, how to explain the gini coefficient, and the mass migrations of peoples? Happy people tend to stay put; people in distress migrate. Migration costs a lot of money, I know this first hand.

Ask a migrant if he'd rather be back home or in a Des Moines, IA meat packing plant doing grueling work for low pay and no protections as an illegal immigrant, I think you can guess the answer. But, ask him who's got the family plot of land now, and he'll say Dole or Del Monte or some other agro-alimentary concern, which flooded the market with low priced goods from subsidized and mechanized farms, drove him out of business and then bought his land cheap.

Collectivization in the interest of Capital rather than the people, that's what "free trade" has been primarily about.

Fai de bèn a Bertrand, te lou rendra en cagant

by redstar on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 09:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The gini coefficient describes unequality, not standard of living. It only makes sense in places where there has been lots of growth but no or just small gains for the broad middle class or its equivalent (like in the US).

The big story is China and India and the giant progress which has been made there (check it in Gapminder), and no amount of Mexican anecdotes is going to change that.

By the way, massive migration is in itself nothing bad. The hundreds of millions who have left the Chinese countryside hasn't done it because they've gotten worse off - you can't get worse off than a poor Chinese farmer without dying - but because they've gotten an opportunity to live a better life in the cities. It's the same thing which happened in Europe during the 20th century.

All your complaints about the results of free and unfettered trade is not due to the trade itself, but a sympotom of local problems. They are bugs, not features.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 03:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When are you going to stop peddling rubbish about China?

  1. They still are not engaging in Free Trade as you know it.

  2. The vast majority of increase in living standards came before they even instituted the current "free trade" reforms.

  3. That pattern of growth out of poverty mirrors pretty well the experiences of both Japan and South Korea and the USA, in fact - there's a whole set of vital steps that occur under protectionism.

I know you don't like it, but the empirical evidence is that "free trade" as you push it doesn't provide the outcomes you think it does.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 04:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. The Chinese are certainly engaging in free trade, they way I mean it. Sure, there are still some tariffs on strategic metals and goods with a high energy content, but that's about it.

  2. Certainly not. It came with Deng, both as a result of him instituting smart reforms and partly by him just not being Mao "let's kill millions through incompetence and malice" Zedong. Like I said before, just check Gapminder. It's a great tool.

  3. I never said the State doesn't have a great role in development. Being a free trader is not the same as being a neoliberal. I've read a great book on development economics which very clearly shows that wothout a strong state you're not going to get anywhere, though I'm not sure if it has been translated.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 04:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Workers in the developed world aren't better off than they were 30 years ago, and that's not counting the rise in unemployment....

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 09:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just not in the US.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 03:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nor in much of Western Europe...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 04:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 04:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are no better off on average now than 30 years ago, in France. And my guess is that it is the case in more places than the uk or France - it seems Japan hasn't done so well lately.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 at 06:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's only in the past 5 years that a slice of the very rich have taken off and left everybody else behind. Before that, the trend was still toward (slightly) shrinking inequality overall, and most deciles doing equally well.

I hve this in my "decline" article:



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 04:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Piketty, the reversal of the trend from inequality decreasing to growing again started in the early eighties, in France... Although indeed, most of the increase happened in the last ten years (note that this graph's period starts ten years ago...)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 04:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It starts 10 years ago AND shows increasing inequality.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 06:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're partly talking about different things here, on one hand rising inequality and on the other stagnant absolute incomes.

On one hand you have the US were GDP has grown by X % over time Y, while median incomes have been stagnant. That's very bad and one can indeed question why the hell we should even care about economic growth at all in that situation.

On the other hand we have places like Western Europe where the elite might have increased their incomes by 100 % over time Y while median incomes have risen only 50 %.

While the first situation is horrible, the second is certainly not.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 06:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France and much of Western Europe, middle class income has stagnated for the past decade. With the rise of house prices and rents, it has even quite probably strongly decreased for those without wealth.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 07:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And anyway, for many goods and service which are absolutely limited (housing in the most wanted places, education in the top schools, power when money can buy it), rising inequality is bad in itself. If the more wealthy get to control a larger share of private companies' stocks, that directly means a reduction in democracy.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jan 2nd, 2009 at 07:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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