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Further, she says that the only thing that all women have in common is a fear of sexual violence. Brought up with the fear that they will be violated by men to keep them in their place.

This was my conclusion from my review of the Hecklers debate (Transgenderism and Julie Bindel

And that's the point. Bindel is having a rotten life surrounding herself with all the miseries of the world. She can't imagine that most women don't see the world as she does, but she knows that the transgendered cannot possibly share her view and so, QED, we cannot possibly know what it is to be a woman. So why should we be allowed to try ? Why should society indulge us at the expense of the already oppressed 50% of the population ?

However, if all women suffer from the threat of male violence, then it follows that all those suffer that threat are women. This would necessarily include all abused children of either gender and all out LGB people who fear violence for being gender transgressive. She hasn't got a leg to stand on by using this definition for excluding transgender women from 'Category : Woman', even from Vancouver rape crisis centre. It's far too broad and self-defeating.

Equally, her definition of women's lives is too brutally dystopian. I doubt few women would recognise themselves in this, but it's a standard she only measures MtF women by.

And finally, her definition of male violence is too all-encompassing. Practically any relationship bewteen men and women, however consensual, is understandable only in terms of the politics of violence : This way lies madness.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Dec 6th, 2008 at 11:06:38 AM EST
That has to be one of the silliest definitions ever of women. It does not include all women and it surely includes many men.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Dec 6th, 2008 at 12:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, see rg's rhetoric thread.

This debate seems to be almost entirely rhetorical - it reads like a disconnected list of quick-hit soundbite talking points which are supposed to misdirect and disguise, not reveal, the true moral beliefs of the participants.

I don't think either of them is being straightforward or honest about their true positions - it reads to me more as if they're starting from their positions, arguing back from them, but at the same time trying to spin and hide their honest opinions because they wouldn't be acceptable in polite company.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Dec 6th, 2008 at 12:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This may be a result of the fact that both parties were talking to an audience who are aware of the main bulk of the ideas in contention. So really they're just skating the surfaces of the disagreements, not really getting to task with their differences of opinion.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Dec 7th, 2008 at 06:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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