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I believe that the "invasion" of Afghanistan was an evil that was necessitated by 9/11 and the Taliban's insistence upon harboring and nurturing the planners of that and other murderous events.  I also see the "invasion" as a direct benefit to NATO countries that are also under attack by Islamic extremists.

However, the "invasion," was poorly planned and the followup, which could have been of great benefit to Afghan citizens, was botched.  The entire effort was doomed when GWB and his advisers decided to attack Iraq.  In my opinion, prospects for bringing peace and stability to Afghanistan were never good even before the Iraq misadventure due to the fractured nature of Afghan society and incessant meddling by elements within Pakistan (for many years before and after the invasion).  Once Iraq entered the picture Afghanistan became hopeless.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 at 03:16:23 PM EST
It should have been a limited engagement designed to take out select targets, not this ridiculous "nation building" bullshit that is anything but. A limited non-military humanitarian effort after the fact would have been good as well.

It is possible to promote democracy in areas without that legacy, but certainly not Afghanistan for the reasons you gave. I don't think it's institutionally possible for any wealthy nation's government to purse it, though. Their interests lie in keeping other nations politically and economically weak.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 at 08:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I agree with what you say.  The only problem with a limited action in Afghanistan though would have been the resilience of the Taliban (an entire culture really) that would have (will likely anyway) just reentered when NATO left and invited al Qaeda back in.  I don't know of a good solution to that problem.  Having watched al Qaeda plan and execute attacks on US diplomatic posts for years before 9/11, I don't see many choices.  By being in Afghanistan we've probably just temporarily swapped it for Pakistan, Indonesia and several other places that offer safe haven for al-qaeda and such.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 at 10:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't an answer. Technology has lowered the bar to  where serious destruction can be carried out by small groups of people operating out of a country that is politically unimportant and otherwise completely marginalized.

The bottom line is that technology has advanced faster than cultures can evolve.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 at 11:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So The West was supposed to go and defeat "an entire culture, really"?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:25:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With nukes, that's undoubtly a possibility.

Just kidding.

by GreatZamfir on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it weren't for white guilt...

The Wall Street Journal Online: White Guilt and the Western Past: Why is America so delicate with the enemy? (by SHELBY STEELE, May 2, 2006)

There is something rather odd in the way America has come to fight its wars since World War II.

For one thing, it is now unimaginable that we would use anything approaching the full measure of our military power (the nuclear option aside) in the wars we fight. And this seems only reasonable given the relative weakness of our Third World enemies in Vietnam and in the Middle East. But the fact is that we lost in Vietnam, and today, despite our vast power, we are only slogging along--if admirably--in Iraq against a hit-and-run insurgency that cannot stop us even as we seem unable to stop it. Yet no one--including, very likely, the insurgents themselves--believes that America lacks the raw power to defeat this insurgency if it wants to. So clearly it is America that determines the scale of this war. It is America, in fact, that fights so as to make a little room for an insurgency.

Certainly since Vietnam, America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war. And now this unacknowledged policy, which always makes a space for the enemy, has us in another long and rather passionless war against a weak enemy.



We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh fuck. Really dumb people do exist, don't they?
by GreatZamfir on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and they're in charge, too.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Same, first two words, with lots of exclamation points, came out of my mouth as soon as I read the source and the title....

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like something John Bolton would say. This shit lends some credence to those who say evil is a disease- or at least a psychosis. If it were only just stupidity.
Stupid people can be very dangerous, but at least can be identified and isolated- or at least one can eventually pry their fingers from the levers of power. But the bright but nuts can be incredibly convincing and --personally certain. Their grip is harder to loosen.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If their privatised guards havent broken them

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I remember correctly, within a month of 9/11 the Taliban made several offers to the effect that they would extradite Bin Laden to an international tribunal if the US produced evidence of his involvement but the US instead bombed the shit out of them.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've heard that too. Only problem is, I can't remember hearing it at the time, only much later. This is a rare occasion where my memory of how I perceived things at the time doesn't contradict the official US media version. You may well be right in this case, but I'd like to see some reliable source for it.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:24:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By way of wikipedia, an article from 15th of October 2001:

Portsmouth Herald World/National News: U.S. Jets Pound Targets Around Kabul

Bush ordered the strikes Oct. 7 after Afghanistan's Islamic regime refused repeated demands to surrender bin Laden, chief suspect in the Sept. 11 hijackings that killed an estimated 6,000 people at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in a Pennsylvania field.

Taliban Deputy Prime Minister Haji Abdul Kabir offered Sunday to surrender bin Laden for trial in an unspecified third country if Washington stopped the bombing and provided the Taliban with evidence of the Saudi dissident's guilt. Bush said no.

``We know he's guilty. Turn him over,'' the president said in Washington.

Bush rejected a similar offer aired by a lower-ranking Taliban official before he began the military strikes, now in its ninth day.



A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. Now that I think about it, I realize that I was more dependent than usual on the mainstream media at that time, having rather limited internet access - my ISP's switches were located a few blocks from the WTC...
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You said you
believe that the "invasion" of Afghanistan was an evil that was necessitated by 9/11 and the Taliban's insistence upon harboring and nurturing the planners of that and other murderous events.  

I strongly dissent, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  As I have said on other occasions, if we play the game like that, then Cuba has the right to bomb Miami and invade the USA (if only it could!!!) based on the US harboring of Posada Carriles (as well as plenty other terrorists it has no doubt funded, trained and collaborated with).  And if you want to talk about sponsoring anti-democratic forces, we can go on forever!

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 06:07:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention that Austria-Hungary was (according to these rules) fully entitled to attack Serbia as it harboured the terrorists behind 6/28. So the Central Powers were not responsible for the first world war after all. When is UK, US and France going to pay back all the reperations?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 06:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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