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I want to add.
McCain at least cares for the Iraqis, while most leftish politicians have no plausible arguments why leaving Iraq will help the Iraqis. With superior force it would feasible to stablilize Iraq.
Leaving Iraq now would give the neocons in the US the possebility to create a "Dolchstoßlegende", as they have already tried with Vietnam - and in case of Iraq they would have more chances to be successful.
The longer I think about it, the less I see a chance that Obama could change the mind set leading to the Iraq invasion, with his "city upon a hill" rethoric he is exactly undermining any focus on the question, what other nations think, which is the best test for the legitimicy of a war.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 at 07:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
Leaving Iraq now would give the neocons in the US the possebility to create a "Dolchstoßlegende", as they have already tried with Vietnam - and in case of Iraq they would have more chances to be successful.

Seeing as the Surge does not consist of a large enough force to be truely successful. I've thought that this was its main purpose.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 at 08:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Studies suggest that the forces would have to be increased to about 400 000 soldiers. I know that this is nearly impossible.
But even the ongoing surge has reduced the violance.

The success of a creation of a legend could even work without that there would have been a real alternative, but would allow the neocons to go into another war in some years elsewhere.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 at 08:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, following the analogy with the Dolchstosslegende, what the world needs is for the US to unconditionally surrender somewhere?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe, so all hope is lost that the current wars are the last with US involvement for a long time, unless it becomes economically unbearable to make such wars.

Very sad.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I should explain the word "Dolchstoßlegende".

Despite Germany had to accept conditionless surrender, in WW I there was never a fight on German soil. Basically after the US entered the war directly, Germany had no chance any more and all military historicans agree on that.
But the groups who first surrendered were poitically very left. The Weimarer Republic was essentially founded by the SPD, the major German left wing party. As there was no war in Germany, the monarchists could keep the myth of the "Dolchstoßlegende" alive, that Germany could have won WW I, if the left groups would not have betrayed the country. This was a major burden for the new democracy and the SPD, which later lost a lot of voters to the Nazis who were allowed to reverse most of the burdens, which the SPD Gov accepted in the Versailler treaty.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 13th, 2008 at 08:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see.

f I understand the 'doctrine' "Dolchstoßlegende" correctly, I believe that it will be used indeed by Bush and his neo-con supporters. There have been high-profile indications from Patraeus demand for more troops in Iraq to Gates' recent attacks on US NATO and EU allies.

by The3rdColumn on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 08:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In English the legend Martin refers to is called the "Stab in the Back" legend.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 09:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, thanks.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 09:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Dolchstosslegende was a major factor in the allies' decision to demand unconditional surrender from the axis powers at the end of WWII.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:35:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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