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It doesn't prevent from adapting to various beliefs ; and non-pork meat is served in public schools, etc... Making sure that all individuals have access to services is important ; making sure that those services don't discriminate, too.
But once you recognise ethnic groups - that have special needs, special rights, not as a bunch of individuals, but as a group - how do you avoid ghettoisation ? How far are you from "separate but equal" ?
And we're not talking about not taking into account "demographic" differences. Counting the proportion of children, elderly, men and women, etc... is done and obviously important. But why should "ethnicity" be a criteria for the public service ? How does that not lead to various discriminations ? Once you decide the services should be specifically designed to accommodate a particular ethnicity, does the inevitable local minority not feel disenfranchised ? Should we have women-only swimming pools, forbid the sale of meat on Fridays ?
Hey, I've never understood why religion should be seen by the state as more important that, say, football fandom, knitting, stamp collecting, or whatever hobby one practices. Why should it get a special status ?
The whole French way of seeing this subject is that there are human rights for individuals, but not for groups. The French republic is one and indivisible. At least until Sarkozy attempts to change it (which he is trying to do.) Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Knowing where there are higher populations of older people or children ensures that enough care homes or schools are available in an area - as you mention, it's important to know these such demographics.
Knowing ethnicity profiles allows service planning to avoid disadvantaging minority ethnic groups - this does not amount to discriminating against majority groups though, just ensuring that access is available for all. This is easier done if you know where and how many in terms of ethnicity, because there could be a higher demand for a certain type of service provision as a result.
The right to practise ones religion is a fundamental human right. It isn't in the same league as expressing one's preference for a football team. I'm not a religious person and I often think the world would be a much better place without religion but the bottom line is that there are a number of religions and it wouldn't be a fair point for me to say that people always have a choice about whether they practise a religion or not, any more than people have a 'choice' about what age or gender they are. These are all characteristics that affect how people live their lives and the way in which they can access society.
But aside from all of that, European legislation protects people form being discriminated against on the grounds of religion and belief and ethnicity - this includes unintentional and indirect discrimination through not making adequate provision in service delivery.
Ethnicity can also be separate from religion. Where you have communities with a higher proportion of black people for example, evidence suggests that they are less likely to be employed (a number of factors, expectations and poor educational performance, discrimination from employers). So it may be that these communities would be targetted to encourage them to seek employment or go back to college or do skills training to improve their chances of gaining employment.
I suppose another point to bring into the mix is how do public services genuinely manage to offer individual access? I believe that would be the ideal but the resources aren't there to allow for every possible choice an individual would wish to make. The political will in the UK isn't there to offer that despite banging on about customer care and citizens as consumers of services (taking over from citizens receiving services without much choice or where, when and how.)
So we aren't that far apart in believing that human rights are for individuals, but how can that most effectively be put into practise? Ad astra per aspera
I think you underestimate how seriously some people (mainly men) take football:
"Football is not a matter of life and death, it's far more important than that!" Bill Shankly
But, more seriously, just because some people take their beliefs seriously, this does not mean that the rest of us must do so. Nor does the state have to do so, apart from allowing freedom of belief - except where this has a negative impact on others. Must we really take the idea of teaching creationism seriously, just because some people take it seriously?
The current republication of the Danish cartoons which upset some Muslims is an example. Free speech, even when it offends others (in fact especially then) is a vital freedom. Religious people ought not to be able to limit this right, especially not by threats of and actual violence, even murder. Learning to deal with feeling offended is an important requirement of living in a tolerant, civilized society. If everything is the will of Allah, as some believe, presumably it was his will that they were published - perhaps to test the faith of Muslims (cf. a Christian argument for the reason for evil in the world).
There is also the problem that there are so many religions, are you going to try to accommodate the wishes of all of them, sometimes conflicting with each other?
Also it's not like age, about which one has no choice; people can and do choose to leave a religion, join another one, or manage without one. The fact that someone might feel they have no choice about their beliefs and feel unhappy that the state does not accommodate those beliefs - e.g. that abortion, divorce, etc. should be banned and that the stoning of gays and adulterers, etc. should be enforced - is their problem. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
I have not been trying to dissect my own views here but to look at UK/European discourse around equality.
Personally, I do not believe that giving people the right to express their beliefs or follow a religion in any way should over-ride the rights of any other person to have freedom and safety in how they live their life. Yes, some people take religion very seriously but I think it is a private matter for them and should not interfere with anybody else's life. Just to make that clear.
I also do not believe that religion should have any place in dictating public policy. ie public policy to say that christian values should be upheld according to so and so's interpretation of the Bible - where gay people are sinners and women must be meek and mild and children must not know anything about Darwins theory of evolution.
I'm talking here about service provision. Someone who has been brought up within a strict religious environment is not going to be empowered or may not wish to ignore their upbringing. So a muslim woman will not allow herself to be examined by a male gynacologist - what if she has cervical cancer? She'll die if she isn't accessing services due to there not being a female doctor. The same provision can be given to a woman who won't allow a male doctor to examine her because she has been abused or raped. It benefits more than one to put further thought into delivery of services to accommodate individual needs rather than a one size fits all model. But equally, there are not the resources to completely individualise the service, so, understanding demographics and the associated characteristics allows services to be planned to meet as many needs as possible, effectively.
But the key point I am trying to make is that legislation says that individuals should not be discriminated against on the basis of having - or NOT having - a religion or belief. And the question is around how do service providers ensure that needs are met and that they do not indirectly discriminate against certain groups because they have failed to take their needs into account?
I am also not just talking about religion but ethnicity also - the two can be completely separate. Ad astra per aspera
Let's have a look at your example, the women that doesn't want to be seen by a male gynecologist... See I don't even say she "could" be muslim, some women disliking males as a generality (and no, it's not a sexist remark :-) ) or simply some old spinster quite shy !
If you allow such attitude in a given society, you state that men and women are not equal... And if you search work it's just natural that you won't bee paid in a similar manner!
If on the contrary you state that men and women have equal rights, that means that you'll have male and female doctors everywhere. If you state that medical examination is a right for all (male, female, old young, rich, poor), then you have a social security system that allows for a given women to "choose" the doctor she want's to see - either on a qualification basis (he's the best!), sexual one (he's cute), or whatever goes by one 's mind (he has seen a flying saucer!).
Which one is the best service ? the one that fits all or the one that has "tagged" waiting lines (men, women, children) - Uh oh... The little green one there from Mars hasn't a chance ! - "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
I agree there should be choice, but the system as it is does not offer that full choice and is a long way from doing so.
Given various inequalities in society, there are fewer women doctors available, especially in certain fields. So it takes thought in the planning process to ensure that some clinics will have female doctors available, which may require extra resources to be put in to achieve that.
I'm not saying I disagree with choice to access the services as, when and how ANY individual wants to - I'm saying that services (in the UK at least) are not delivered that way, therefore thought must go into the planning process to make sure that groups are not being missed off or disadvantaged.
I'm NOT saying that minority needs should be prioritised over majority needs, but they must be considered and attempts made to remove any barriers to access - which the majority do not face.
If you can plan services to provide good access for minorities and therefore catering for diversity, then the side affect is that it will benefit the majority because service delivery has become more diverse, therefore meeting more needs whether people can 'tick a box' or not. Ad astra per aspera
Another example in the same style would be the "Jehovah" followers. They don't allow for blood transfusion... Does the doctor let the kid die to respect the faith of his parents ? Do you allow for excision on young girls, because it's "tradition"?
The point is not that such country, faith, ethnic group, old lore, is "bad" per se... But you can't believe in human rights at the same time then closing eyes on their regular violations on "cultural" pretexts ...
It's not without analogy to "systems", when you start with one, you usually have to go all the way...
It's also about "private" rights, space, liberty, etc. A full dose of liberty and you can kill who you want (no laws, what for ?), a full dose of restriction of liberties and you have totalitarianism (there's only one law, me - the chief).
The there is the "public" part - how much of it? Is it an "in-between" that would allow for some to "breathe" and link the myriad's of minorities, or is it the major space of our societies ?
It's like rope walking... Not easy and a fragile imbalance (not balance) or you fall ! "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
I have no dispute with you saying fundamental human rights to each and every person but I'm not seeing how that is implemented in practice in France.
Human rights should quite rightly over-ride religious or cultural traditions that cause oppression or indignity to individuals - the UK does not attempt to turn a blind eye or allow violations of human rights such as the examples you offer. So we are saying the same thing about human rights but go about implementing that in different ways. Ad astra per aspera
It reminds me of an Indian cartoonist book on the "third eye's view" :-)
Human rights were designed by occidental prone people - in enlighten times - The Afghan problem diary, here on ET, mentions that "viewpoint" siding... And that's the trouble. You can live well in a completely different cultural world, if you believe fully in it, in it's goals (religious or not). The everyday emotions would be the same... So why should we change them???
Is it because of immigration overload? Why is there in the first place? Why would I go to another country, live there, take the nationality ? Surely it must be, because either I feel it's freer system then mine, or it's because I'll have more money... In one case I came for the values in the other for the value... Maybe not exactly the same thing! :-) (ok, it's late)!
It is really an important but difficult point... And it's hard to have an external viewpoint ! :-) "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
There is a crucial distinction between law and orders. One definition of "liberty" is freedom from control by another person, that is, freedom from commands. Law may be restrictive, but isn't inconsistent with liberty.
A chief's will isn't law, because it isn't a rule intended for universal application to unspecified persons. (A chief may make laws, of course.)
There are good, practical reasons for using this definition of liberty. For one, it makes "liberty" an ideal that can be approached by a civil society, rather than being recipe for anarchy that must be avoided by a wide margin. Many libertarians misunderstand the concept of liberty, and their misunderstanding gives it a bad name, which, of course, undermines liberty. -------------
In the present context, I'd argue that there should be a framework of universal law, grounded in a concept of human rights, and that within the broad limits of that law, groups should be able to make more specific law applicable to their members. This principle, applied geographically, is an aspect of federalism. Why must it be based on (coarse-grained) geography? Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
"personal laws" bring back the idea of casts. In Europe we moved out of it quite some time ago. Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Regarding exiting a group, I think this must be a universal right, but not timed so as to escape an acceptable punishment for an offence (the meaning of "acceptable" here is in need of crafting, and the boundary would surely be fuzzy). The analogy here is emigration, only not necessarily geographical in nature.
Regarding corporations and taxes, as you say, this is already a problem; non-geographical (or fine-grained geographical) law does not change anything essential. (As for corporations, there is no reason to regard them as having rights in the first place, which provides considerable latitude for applying restrictive laws.)
Regarding castes, freedom of exit makes an enormous difference. Membership in a restrictive group would be optional, reversible, and not necessarily hereditary. ----------
The alternative, it seems to me, is to pit groups seeking order and decency (by their standards) against those seeking a different sort of order and decency. Or, to put it concretely, indigenous peoples (e.g., those of Europe) have more reason to fear immigrants if those immigrants may eventually establish noxious laws that are universally applicable throughout their ancestral homeland. They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.
Note that the world is becoming saturated with surveillance systems, and that this will change possibilities for law enforcement in relevant ways. In particular, it will likely make restrictions more effective and potentially personalised. All the more reason to be able to opt out of other people's offencive notions of right and wrong -- and to opt into a context that enforces one's own enlightened standards. Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.
Really interesting point. I think the UK approach tries to provide for the needs and wishes of different communities but not to the extent that it forces this on any other individual or community. So the balance is continually being struck sometimes with success and sometimes not. Ad astra per aspera
But the UK has been through various models of 'public engagment' or consultation over the years.
The approach is to accept that information will not get out to everyone and even when it does, not everyone will know what alternatives they could ask for or to be empowered to ask for that. So services have a responsibility to anticipate need based on good practice elsewhere, and research findings on the needs of different communities and successful interventions. Ad astra per aspera
eg where you know that there is a higher muslim population it makes sense to allocate resources to ensure that muslim women can have access to, women only swimming sessions once or twice a week, for example. Not women only swimming pools but a compromise that allows muslim/any women to swim and feel comfortable and safe.
You don't put women only hours because there are muslims in the area ; you put women only sessions(if at all ; if, say, the white people tell you they are uncomfortable with seeing black people in the swimming pool, do you arrange white-only sessions ?) when many individuals are demanding such possibilities.
You'd be surprised that many "muslim" women (as religion and ethnicity are often confused) would like to go to the swimming pool at all hours. Of course, when there are women only sessions, it means those women of the targeted religion that will go to the non-women only session will be seen as disrespecting their religion. And indeed, may more or less lose the ability to go to the swimming pool at all hours.
This is easier done if you know where and how many in terms of ethnicity, because there could be a higher demand for a certain type of service provision as a result.
Are the African American that get into Harvard on affirmative action those from the 'hood, or those of middle class origin that would have gotten there anyway ?
Targeting policies on ethnicity is often less efficient than targeting them on socioeconomic class, or on need. You put services based on actual need, not because there's a correlation between ethnicity and need (and correlation isn't causation).
No, sorry, people don't have more or less a choice about which football team they support than which religion they practice. And many people care much more about that team than about any religion.
Putting the "religion" tag on a hobby doesn't make it untouchable. Or do I get to fund my theft-practising religion of cocain-sniffing nudists ?
What happened to the normal, democratic cycle of asking what people want, letting them vote for the people who will decide what to do, etc... ? Why the shortcut of "ethnicity" ?
Ethnicities, religious groupings, aren't even homogeneous.
And again, why the emphasis on ethnicity rather than, say, social class ? If an ethnicity is 'disenfranchised', it is most of the time because its members are poor.
Italian, Spanish, Auvergnats, all those immigrants to Paris were disenfranchised right after the time of their immigration. An ethnicity based approach would have concluded they had specific need... But those communities have now merged into the Parisian population. Their problems were economic, not ethnic. Pointing out their ethnic particularities slowed their integration.
So we aren't that far apart in believing that human rights are for individuals, but how can that most effectively be put into practise?
Human rights are universal. Don't depend on groups. If you decide to create a ticking box for saying "I am this or that" and decide to provide services based on the answers, you have given up universality.
And, worse, you reinforce the subgroups. It becomes important that everyone who might belong to the subgroup check the box - the services provided depend on it. Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
But having evidence to show that there is a higher muslim population, therefore a higher chance that this provision may be needed or requested, allows the need to be anticipated and provided for. It does not equate to assuming that groups are homogenous and in previous diaries I have discussed how groups are totally far from homogenous.
It's easy enough to monitor and review how services are used. So it may be that only 4 women a week turn up to women only swimming sessions. Maybe 70 turn up, therefore review and decide whether to keep the service or not. But not providing the service at all, you do not know whether women are NOT turning up because of it. It could be the only form of exercise some women do, so it has health implications.
I am not saying that ALL people from a particular group will want to make use of a certain provision. Services need to be planned and probability derived from the demographics can help to anticipate demands on services.
Not all individuals feel empowered to complain or request something. They may not know what could be made available to them. I stopped going to the cinema because adequate provision was not made for me. I've given up requesting loop systems that work or asking why they don't put on more subtitled films. The same analogy can be made to public service provision. People can be ignored, people may not see the point in complaining or requesting provision. It is the responsibility of service providers to try to anticipate need. If there is no take up, then it can be removed.
We can take all politicians at their word then? they say they will do x,y,z means that they will? Even so, the politicians themselves do not design the services at local levels, really. Ethnicity, and gender and age and disability demographics help to anticipate what the needs and demands may be.
I do not dispute the importance of social class/wealth to all of this. That remains a crucial factor in access to opportunities and life chances. But other characteristics also play their part.
Institutionalised racism exists in public services, in employment, in education, in healthcare - and only by acknowledging this can it be tackled properly.
Migrant communities from the A8 countries (or areas such as Somalia) in the UK are given support to integrate by provision of language lessons, by employing people from these minority groups to ensure that information is going out to these communities, by trying to promote good relations between different groups. We can only do that when we know where these people are and how many of them there are. Leaving them to fend for themselves doesn't work, they become ghettoised far more that way. It's far easier for immigrants from countries like Italy, France, Spain etc to 'integrate' into the UK.
And when we've seen the riots around race issues in Paris, I don't really see how I can believe that France has been successful with integration. Ad astra per aspera
Read E.T. archives abut those riots, they never were about race or ethnicity but about economy and state care! "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
One big problem I have with this attitude is that in essence, you consider the State should concern itself with the specific needs of some (potentially very closed) groups of people. I am not talking about providing services to disabled people : that I have no problem with, it is indeed very important.
The French objection is only about ethnicity. The swimming pool case, for example, is pretty much about providing a muslim-specific service. Once again, there may be people who are deterred from going to the swimming pool because there are black people there. A white only or black only session should still not be provided.
The French nation recognises, constitutionally, no ethnicity. Providing ethnic-only services, even though those are not explicitely segregated, raises a lot of alarm bells. Do you provide separate gym lessons for the muslim pupils, with a female teacher ?
That's a very technocratic approach. And it shows a problem in the local feedback loops of the UK ; the municipalities are way too small in France, but one of the definite advantages is that the mayor will be a close by person. It definitely won't be hard to approach him on a specific request, or to tray and get somebody else elected.
Firstly, I want to point out I'm not talking about Italian immigrants now going into the UK. I'm talking about, say, a Italian farmer emigrating to Paris in the 1920's. The culture shock was similar as that of people immigrating from Morocco in the 70's, if not stronger. They were violently harassed for quite some time. And indeed, at first they behaved as communities. But the French state didn't really treat them as such. It idn't try to provide Italian-language swimming lessons or special school sections, to employ community leaders. And yet, there is no Italian ghetto right now in Paris, but many people of Italian origins. They may go to Italy see the family and eat the food twice a year, but they are fully integrated into French society.
Considering immigrants as groups helps them remains grouped and potentially ghettoized.
And when we've seen the riots around race issues in Paris, I don't really see how I can believe that France has been successful with integration.
Yes. Especially in the suburbs of Lille where the great-grand children of Polish and Portuguese and Belgian immigrants rioted along the chtimi's.
There's no need of race statistics to know the French police is racist. There's a need of a government willing to stand up to the police.
There are other ways to demonstrate that instutitionalized racism - such as "testing". That's how it's done in France.
Note that the only "communautarian" statistics - it's possible to ask nationality at birth of parents, etc..., tend to show that place of origin plays a relatively small role in socio-economic status ; much less important than parental socio-economic status. Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Fluctuation in demand for certain types of provision can be anticipated by knowing the demographics. This can then be reviewed as services are delivered to see if all people are accessing the services without facing any disadvantage or exclusion.
Where people can't access services they are often not empowered to complain or request something better, or may not know how to exercise their rights. I still think there is a big question mark over how you provide individualised services? The UK utterly fails on this one. Ad astra per aspera
I still think there is a big question mark over how you provide individualised services? The UK utterly fails on this one.
You provide universal services. France used not to fail so much at that. Now it has changed a bit. Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
We have here the "tiers temps" for exams, allowing people with disabling problems to have more time (one third more) and the possibility to pass the exam alone in a room (with an examiner). It works for physical disabilities (big face lupus, leper, blind, deaf and dumb, etc...) as it works for people having some rare mental disabilities and being as a result a bit more slow but not dumber !
When we have the problem of religious days (friday, saturday, sunday), we don't say that such religion goer can miss a day, we find a system that allows everybody to miss a day, chosen by him in the week... The young mothers are just as happy as the poor student who can finance part of his studies...
This is more about universality (it's for everybody alike) then for "tagging" people "Oh, he's a ... (fill the blank)"! You never have to say why you miss a day to your fellow students nor the administration, as the system allows for it !
Asking about rights for such or such group is the best way I know for injustice... Thinking it over and finding a solution that fits all makes everyone happy ! "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
Religion I think is slightly different in some ways since methods can be found to allow different religions to co-exist - you gave an example of people choosing which day of the week to take off.
But ethnicity is different, so is gender and disability, and also age, because prejudices and stereotypes exist that marginalise those groups.
If no data is collected then this cannot be monitored for patterns to emerge. eg very, very few women are Chief execs compared to men. Is this because women are lazy, or because they have chosen to take time off for children or because they choose to paint their nails and dress up instead of working hard? Or are there other factors that are causing disadvantage and preventing women from reaching senior positions? We can only look into these trends when we have the data to show that there is some anomaly. Same thing applies to ethnicity but the causes are much more subtle.
If men and women, and black people and white people are so equal - why are there such big differences in outcomes?
I'm intrigued as to why the British approach is to gather data and find out more about why and how differences occur and the French approach is to treat everyone the same and not monitor anything. Ad astra per aspera
My very own mother, had a problem with some medical alarm at night (we wanted it for her) and her free bus pass for elderly ! The rules were so well done that she couldn't have the two... So before tossing over the alarm she went to see her deputy ( all free, no lawyers, just the classical way ) stated the problem - he told her about getting some commissions on the study- so she wrote and went to see the mayor of Paris - she did see him - he stated that this would change if he was re-elected - so... It finished in the PM cabinet with all those guys looking at a 95 years old woman arguing about injustice for the elderly ! This time she didn't win and tossed the alarm (she didn't care, it was for the fun of being a "citizen")
Twenty years ago she had a law passed "for her", meaning for all the people in her situation at that time (obscure thing about retirement points when abroad). She had made about the same trip around the different representative and the proposition was presented to the assembly and voted (maybe there was nobody as usual) :-)
This is what Habermas calls the integration by individual of society...
Or something not very different :-) "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
And, well, a lot of what the French government, regions, departements, etc... do is decided upon various forms of law.
What is meant (or more precisely used to be meant) by universal service is that the State (or local community) provides a basic form of public service everywhere and for everyone. This includes schooling, police (a big problem is that in some parts the police is acting in quite non-normal ways), postal service, health, etc...
This means that even in the farthest corner of the Guyana jungle a stamp to Paris will cost the same as if bought in Paris.
"treating everybody the same way" doesn't imply not looking at what influences success, and trying to correct the causes of it ; indeed some schools in the suburbs have (supposedly, as this is not done correctly) better financing. But the criteria for determining those problem schools are only actual lousy results or school violence... If it was found out a state agent considered putting a school in this category because the neighbourhood had lots of Arabs, the scandal it would launch would be quite impressive... Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
I'm not quite sure what the contention is here. I gathered that you were talking about how to provide individuals services tailored to their needs, with the implication that some people's need weren't mainstream enough to be provided as part of a general social consensus (say one soccer field for every 500 kids). More particularly, some needs have a religious, ethnic, or sexual basis that aren't easily used to justify special provision. The channels to express such need may be lacking, social stigma may hinder demands, which calls for public assessment of the situation by other means that what's currently in place.
You've mentioned a more precise census, but the recipients of censuses are state organizations.. are they supposed to decide both what public amenities are required and at which density threshold they should be provided? If I assume not than you fall back on the channel of demand problem... Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
