Another example in the same style would be the "Jehovah" followers. They don't allow for blood transfusion... Does the doctor let the kid die to respect the faith of his parents ? Do you allow for excision on young girls, because it's "tradition"?
The point is not that such country, faith, ethnic group, old lore, is "bad" per se... But you can't believe in human rights at the same time then closing eyes on their regular violations on "cultural" pretexts ...
It's not without analogy to "systems", when you start with one, you usually have to go all the way...
It's also about "private" rights, space, liberty, etc. A full dose of liberty and you can kill who you want (no laws, what for ?), a full dose of restriction of liberties and you have totalitarianism (there's only one law, me - the chief).
The there is the "public" part - how much of it? Is it an "in-between" that would allow for some to "breathe" and link the myriad's of minorities, or is it the major space of our societies ?
It's like rope walking... Not easy and a fragile imbalance (not balance) or you fall ! "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
I have no dispute with you saying fundamental human rights to each and every person but I'm not seeing how that is implemented in practice in France.
Human rights should quite rightly over-ride religious or cultural traditions that cause oppression or indignity to individuals - the UK does not attempt to turn a blind eye or allow violations of human rights such as the examples you offer. So we are saying the same thing about human rights but go about implementing that in different ways. Ad astra per aspera
It reminds me of an Indian cartoonist book on the "third eye's view" :-)
Human rights were designed by occidental prone people - in enlighten times - The Afghan problem diary, here on ET, mentions that "viewpoint" siding... And that's the trouble. You can live well in a completely different cultural world, if you believe fully in it, in it's goals (religious or not). The everyday emotions would be the same... So why should we change them???
Is it because of immigration overload? Why is there in the first place? Why would I go to another country, live there, take the nationality ? Surely it must be, because either I feel it's freer system then mine, or it's because I'll have more money... In one case I came for the values in the other for the value... Maybe not exactly the same thing! :-) (ok, it's late)!
It is really an important but difficult point... And it's hard to have an external viewpoint ! :-) "What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
There is a crucial distinction between law and orders. One definition of "liberty" is freedom from control by another person, that is, freedom from commands. Law may be restrictive, but isn't inconsistent with liberty.
A chief's will isn't law, because it isn't a rule intended for universal application to unspecified persons. (A chief may make laws, of course.)
There are good, practical reasons for using this definition of liberty. For one, it makes "liberty" an ideal that can be approached by a civil society, rather than being recipe for anarchy that must be avoided by a wide margin. Many libertarians misunderstand the concept of liberty, and their misunderstanding gives it a bad name, which, of course, undermines liberty. -------------
In the present context, I'd argue that there should be a framework of universal law, grounded in a concept of human rights, and that within the broad limits of that law, groups should be able to make more specific law applicable to their members. This principle, applied geographically, is an aspect of federalism. Why must it be based on (coarse-grained) geography? Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
"personal laws" bring back the idea of casts. In Europe we moved out of it quite some time ago. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
Regarding exiting a group, I think this must be a universal right, but not timed so as to escape an acceptable punishment for an offence (the meaning of "acceptable" here is in need of crafting, and the boundary would surely be fuzzy). The analogy here is emigration, only not necessarily geographical in nature.
Regarding corporations and taxes, as you say, this is already a problem; non-geographical (or fine-grained geographical) law does not change anything essential. (As for corporations, there is no reason to regard them as having rights in the first place, which provides considerable latitude for applying restrictive laws.)
Regarding castes, freedom of exit makes an enormous difference. Membership in a restrictive group would be optional, reversible, and not necessarily hereditary. ----------
The alternative, it seems to me, is to pit groups seeking order and decency (by their standards) against those seeking a different sort of order and decency. Or, to put it concretely, indigenous peoples (e.g., those of Europe) have more reason to fear immigrants if those immigrants may eventually establish noxious laws that are universally applicable throughout their ancestral homeland. They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.
Note that the world is becoming saturated with surveillance systems, and that this will change possibilities for law enforcement in relevant ways. In particular, it will likely make restrictions more effective and potentially personalised. All the more reason to be able to opt out of other people's offencive notions of right and wrong -- and to opt into a context that enforces one's own enlightened standards. Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.
Really interesting point. I think the UK approach tries to provide for the needs and wishes of different communities but not to the extent that it forces this on any other individual or community. So the balance is continually being struck sometimes with success and sometimes not. Ad astra per aspera
But the UK has been through various models of 'public engagment' or consultation over the years.
The approach is to accept that information will not get out to everyone and even when it does, not everyone will know what alternatives they could ask for or to be empowered to ask for that. So services have a responsibility to anticipate need based on good practice elsewhere, and research findings on the needs of different communities and successful interventions. Ad astra per aspera
