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"A full dose of liberty and you can kill who you want (no laws, what for ?), a full dose of restriction of liberties and you have totalitarianism (there's only one law, me - the chief)."

There is a crucial distinction between law and orders. One definition of "liberty" is freedom from control by another person, that is, freedom from commands. Law may be restrictive, but isn't inconsistent with liberty.

A chief's will isn't law, because it isn't a rule intended for universal application to unspecified persons. (A chief may make laws, of course.)

There are good, practical reasons for using this definition of liberty. For one, it makes "liberty" an ideal that can be approached by a civil society, rather than being recipe for anarchy that must be avoided by a wide margin. Many libertarians misunderstand the concept of liberty, and their misunderstanding gives it a bad name, which, of course, undermines liberty.
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In the present context, I'd argue that there should be a framework of universal law, grounded in a concept of human rights, and that within the broad limits of that law, groups should be able to make more specific law applicable to their members. This principle, applied geographically, is an aspect of federalism. Why must it be based on (coarse-grained) geography?

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 08:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thing is, how do you avoid people switching groups when the timing suits themselves ? Do you intend to force people to stay within one group ? We are already reaching the limits of federalism, seeing corporations playing the tax rates of one EU country against another.

"personal laws" bring back the idea of casts. In Europe we moved out of it quite some time ago.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 09:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is much to dislike about the idea, but the question is whether some well-crafted version would be better than the alternatives.
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Regarding exiting a group, I think this must be a universal right, but not timed so as to escape an acceptable punishment for an offence (the meaning of "acceptable" here is in need of crafting, and the boundary would surely be fuzzy). The analogy here is emigration, only not necessarily geographical in nature.

Regarding corporations and taxes, as you say, this is already a problem; non-geographical (or fine-grained geographical) law does not change anything essential. (As for corporations, there is no reason to regard them as having rights in the first place, which provides considerable latitude for applying restrictive laws.)

Regarding castes, freedom of exit makes an enormous difference. Membership in a restrictive group would be optional, reversible, and not necessarily hereditary.
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The alternative, it seems to me, is to pit groups seeking order and decency (by their standards) against those seeking a different sort of order and decency. Or, to put it concretely, indigenous peoples (e.g., those of Europe) have more reason to fear immigrants if those immigrants may eventually establish noxious laws that are universally applicable throughout their ancestral homeland. They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.

Note that the world is becoming saturated with surveillance systems, and that this will change possibilities for law enforcement in relevant ways. In particular, it will likely make restrictions more effective and potentially personalised. All the more reason to be able to opt out of other people's offencive notions of right and wrong -- and to opt into a context that enforces one's own enlightened standards.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 03:01:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
technopolitical:
They would have less reason to fear if groups could get most of what they want without forcing it on others.

Really interesting point.  I think the UK approach tries to provide for the needs and wishes of different communities but not to the extent that it forces this on any other individual or community.  So the balance is continually being struck sometimes with success and sometimes not.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 03:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How does a community express its wishes?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 03:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Partly through research and stats (including focus groups, surveys etc) and also through the usual means of elected representatives, local councillors, representative organisations seeking feedback from communities.

But the UK has been through various models of 'public engagment' or consultation over the years.

The approach is to accept that information will not get out to everyone and even when it does, not everyone will know what alternatives they could ask for or to be empowered to ask for that. So services have a responsibility to anticipate need based on good practice elsewhere, and research findings on the needs of different communities and successful interventions.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 03:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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