European Tribune

Display:
I'm much more pessimistic. I don't think at all, that it is easily possible to investigate much without US cooperation - which will not happen.

It is anyhow clear, that the US tortures, is holding people in prison without charges, is not willing to turn in US citizens which have committed crimes (e.g. in Iraq). What should be the outcome of a new investigation? Most people in the US do not care. Some weeks ago I have seen Al Gore holding a speech. He complained that the Gov now can do all that I described EVEN TO AN AMERICAN. With such emphasis on EVEN AN AMERICAN as if it would be mostly acceptable to do this with foreigners. If Al Gore would be a German and one would replace every US with German, I would call him a Nazi.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahrg

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 02:17:23 PM EST
Sadly, right on. And Wilkommen bei ET!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 02:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes and no. Of course everyone with a brain in his head and eyes to see with who doesn't wear an ideological blindfold is full well aware that the US tortures.

But there is a world of difference between knowing it and having an official investigation prove it. If we do have hard proof that the US has been using our airspace illegally and in violation of international law, then it'll be a lot harder to mouth the 'we have informed the Americans of our policies, and since they're our allies, we trust that they'll observe those policies' line (yes, our foreign minister actually says that. Regularly. Shoot me). Since, obviously, you know, they didn't observe our policies with regard to the nature of the use of our airspace.

For that matter, an interesting possibility that some of the newsies mentioned was the fact that Greenland has every right under international law to simply board criminal flights, extract the passengers and send the empty plane on its way with only the pilot in it.

For that matter, simply making sure that official notice is taken of the way the law is broken is bound to do some good.

But yeah, it's entirely possible that I'm whistling in the dark here.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 02:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
at worst, it would mean that Greenland would be cut out of those countries that people were transported through, which would make it that much easier to watch  where they were being transported.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 03:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess that depends on whether the 'muricans take the threat seriously enough. If Greenland does decide to zealously enforce the Chicago Convention and catch one of the planes red-handed with a couple of abductees on board, things could blow up in a pretty spectacular manner... (And no, I don't think that's a pipe dream; CIA has not exactly had a stellar record when it comes to predicting the behaviour of foreign countries... I mean, the Shah? The Bay of Pigs?)

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 at 12:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...the fact that Greenland has every right under international law to simply board criminal flights, extract the passengers and send the empty plane on its way with only the pilot in it.

I dispute the accuracy/usefulness of this statement. My understanding of international law is that only aircraft of a commercial/private, but non-diplomatic, nature can be searched without violation by the receiving State.  Maybe some of the USG flights carrying "detainees" have not been designated as diplomatic, but we can't be sure.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
None of the suspect flights have been designated governmental at all, let alone diplomatic. That's the point. The programme uses private, chartered aircraft.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 at 12:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point. Of course nothing prevents a government from requesting diplomatic status for a chartered aircraft.  I have, in fact, flown on several such.  No, they weren't rendition flights, but how can one be certain which were or were not used for renditions?  

BTW, I see that CIA Director Hayden stated today that the CIA has used "waterboarding" on "only" three persons, all just after 9-11, and on no one within the last 5 years.  

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 at 02:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in the current political climate, making such requests would be an implicit admission of guilt. More importantly, if the government grants them, they're going to risk crucifiction in the polls if it's seen as a move to protect torturers.

Even if the CIA director's statement is credible, it only pertains to waterboarding, and to the CIA. There are various other forms of torture that have been legalised in the US since 9/11, and the US has a number of client states that are known to torture prisoners. AFAIK, it makes no legal difference whether the CIA tortures people themselves or hands them over to the Egyptian authorities, because Egypt has an appalling record when it comes to torture.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 6th, 2008 at 12:49:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no major disagreement with what you say. I don't think asking for diplomatic status for a flight in any way implies that a crime is about to be committed though.  There are many purposes for a country asking for inviolability.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Feb 6th, 2008 at 07:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:
Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password
Recommended Diaries
The Purpose of Education
by rdf - Nov 20
25 comments

In Defense of the Electoral College
by danps - Nov 22
9 comments

Computational simulations in science
by tiagoantao - Nov 20
20 comments

LQD: NATO as 'convenient threat' for Russia
by marco - Nov 21
26 comments

jitter noise rumble
by emilmoller - Nov 19
18 comments

LQD: The real orgasmic Puritans
by Ted Welch - Nov 20
34 comments

The Puritan Edge
by rg - Nov 20
122 comments

Early Friday Photography Blog No. 62
by LEP - Nov 20
58 comments

Debates
Campaigns
Occasional Series