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Edwin is saying that the subjects of rights are human beings, not religions. Judaism exists insofar as individual people practice Judaism, but "Judaism" is not a proper subject of rights: "Jews" are. So, "Jews have the right to practice Judaism".

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:05:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are turning "Individualism" into a new religion, and you are entitled to do so, but it is not ours (or the Arab's for that matter). Our rights come from God and being True to Him - not from the mere fact that we exist as individuals.  It used to be the same in Christianity.  By all means evangelise your new fangled religion but you cannot and will not convert us by force or otherwise.  We have as much right to our religion as you have to yours, and ours is not based on the "individual".  It is based on God.  Islam is the same. We are closer to them than we are to you.
by Mordecai on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:15:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm talking about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which consists in its entirety of rights of individual humans.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:30:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and it is anything but universal in its values and approach - it is against Sharia law, for example.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is universal in that it lists rights which are predicated of every human being.

I don't know enough about Sharia law, but it's probably equally incompatible with Leviticus, for instance.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 08:32:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep - Leviticus thinks slavery is ok as long as you don't treat them too badly.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 08:40:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently you not only have the right to speak for Judaism but also for Islam and Christianity.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A reincarnation of Abraham perhaps? Except none of those religions do reincarnation. Maybe  an archangel? They all have those, right?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:38:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you don't stop, Saint Michael will be dispatched to kick your ass with his flaming sword.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When you cannot counter my arguments on their merits you try to ridicule the messenger.  A clear sign that you have lost. Goodbye
by Mordecai on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, just a sign we don't take argument from religious conviction seriously.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 07:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you fight against God's will there are consequences and there is no point in blaming God or his people when you suffer the consequences.

There is no possible way to counter an argument centred on faith on its merits. It can't be done. Granted, ridicule also doesn't work.

If I believe that global warming is caused by a decrease in the number of pirates then there is no argument based on merits that can cause me to change my mind.

Our rights come from God and being True to Him - not from the mere fact that we exist as individuals.

If you reject the enlightenment, equality, individual liberty, and democracy based on your belief in "God's will" and "chosen people" then an impasse is created. Some other common ground could be searched for though it would be a difficult process. We could explore what being True to God means and see if there was some point where similarities between - say 'equality' and being True to Him lead. Unfortunately the diary format does not easily lend itself to such exploration.

That said, I suppose you are right. No one is likely to challenge your belief structure in a way that you would recognise as valid, just as you have not challenged our belief structure in a way that we would recognise as valid.


As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication -- after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

Age of Reason by Thomas Paine


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 12:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which arguments would that be? Perchance you could quote an argument you think someone has failed to counter? And, I hasten to add, appeal to religious authority is not an argument in the reality-based community.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 01:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a dumb argument.  Nobody's trying to convert you to anything, so stop playing the victim.  It's about respecting the individual's right to believe whatever the hell he/she wants to believe, not converting nations to some "new fangled" religion.

Seriously, Mordecai, read through what you wrote here, and try to think about how those of us who are secular see it.  You sound like a religious extremist of the sort that, in my country (not so much of an issue in Europe), many of us are kind of trying to do away with.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 08:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yawn

I'd dig up the 'unsupported assertion' .gif, but I've already used that once today. Besides, seeing it several times in one post would get boring.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 at 12:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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