but the connections are obviously more easily made in the US. 'Broad church is quite a common phrase in English politics, with no religious connotations at all. It is especially applied to the Labour Party.
as here:
Return of the broad church A leadership contest would be good for our democracy - and good for Labour too John McDonnell Monday April 30, 2007 The Guardian As the prime minister leaves office, what could be more natural than Labour party supporters wanting a say in where the party should go next, especially after 10 years in power? Why then do Gordon Brown's supporters appear intent on avoiding a leadership election in which party members and trade unionists can participate? Perhaps it isn't the fear of losing that worries them but anxiety about what a leadership election could bring forth.
A leadership contest would be good for our democracy - and good for Labour too
John McDonnell Monday April 30, 2007 The Guardian
As the prime minister leaves office, what could be more natural than Labour party supporters wanting a say in where the party should go next, especially after 10 years in power? Why then do Gordon Brown's supporters appear intent on avoiding a leadership election in which party members and trade unionists can participate? Perhaps it isn't the fear of losing that worries them but anxiety about what a leadership election could bring forth.
If an organisation is described as broad church, it is tolerant and accepting of different opinions and ideas. You can't be me, I'm taken
Ooops, that might mean meeting tent. When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
I think ET is the Hanging Man of Tentacles, but perhaps i haven't studied the Book of Duodenum enough. Do i need help? Skennah Kowa
I've just Googled for 'church of cthulhu' and found there isn't one.
Not a proper one, anyway.
If there had been a Church of Cthulhu it would have been just the ticket.
Since there isn't, it's going to have to be plenty of wandering around in the wilderness and lamenting loudly.
(Not that we ever do that on ET. Dear me no.)
The darn thing is embedded everywhere :> Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
Church of Reason
A church is an association of people with a common belief system.
Yes, yes, yes, but no. Sven, don't use that word.
You have to realize that church is a profoundly offensive word to many of us here. I mean really offensive.
Plus, I don't do belief.
I do opinions and judgements, many of them, I'm aware, deeply flawed, biased and uninformed. All of them, at best, provisional, all far too contingent to the limits of my present knowledge. I also do ignorance a lot but that, at least, I try to know.
But no, I don't do belief. I leave belief to religious faith, that socially promoted, often mandated yet deeply crippling form of cognitive impairment. Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
Online Etymology Dictionary
church O.E. cirice "church," from W.Gmc. *kirika, from Gk. kyriake (oikia) "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord." For vowel evolution, see bury. Gk. kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Gk.-to-Gmc. progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it was probably used by W.Gmc. people in their pre-Christian period. Also picked up by Slavic, via Gmc. (cf. O.Slav. criky, Rus. cerkov). Romance and Celtic languages use variants of L. ecclesia. Slang church key for "can or bottle opener" is from 1950s. Church-mouse, proverbial in many languages for its poverty, is 1731 in Eng. antidisestablishmentarianism 1838, said by Weekley to be first recorded in Gladstone's "Church and State," "in reference to a scheme directed against the Church of England," from establishment in the sense of "the ecclesiastical system established by law; the Church of England" (1731). Hence, establishmentarianism "the principle of a state church," and disestablish (1598) "to deprive (a church) of especial state patronage and support," first used specifically of Christianity in 1806. Rarely used at all now except in examples of the longest words, amongst which it has been counted since at least 1923. unchurched 1681, from un- (1) "not" + churched "committed or belonging to a church" (see church). A verb, unchurch "to remove or exclude (someone) from membership in a church" is recorded from 1620. kirk c.1200, northern England and Scot. dial. form of church, from O.N. kirkja "church," from O.E. cirice (see church). malignant 1568, in ref. to diseases, from L. malignans, prp. of malignere (see malign (adj.)). Earlier in the church malignant "followers of the antichrist," from L. ecclesiam malignantum in early Church writing, applied by Protestant writers to the Church in Rome (1542). eremite c.1200, learned form of hermit (q.v.), from Church L. eremita. Since mid-17c. in poetic or rhetorical use only, except in ref. to specific examples in early Church history. Montanist 1449, millenarian and severely ascetic sect that believed in continual direct inspiration of the spirit and offered prominent church roles to women, from Montanus, Christian-inspired prophet in the wilds of Phrygia c.160 C.E. The heresy persisted into the 6c. and helped bring prophecy into disrepute in the established Church. cathedral (n.) 1587, "church of a bishop," from phrase cathedral church (1297), translating L.L. ecclesia cathedralis "church of a bishop's seat," from Gk. kathedra "seat, bench," from kata "down" + hedra "seat, base, chair, face of a geometric solid," from PIE base *sed- "to sit" (see sedentary). gallery 1500, from M.Fr. galerie "a long portico," from M.L. galeria, of uncertain origin, perhaps alteration of galilea "church porch," which is probably from L. Galilaea "Galilee," the northernmost region of Palestine; church porches sometimes were so called from being at the far end of the church. Sense of "building to house art" first recorded 1591; that of "people who occupy a (theater) gallery" (contrasted with "gentlemen of the pit") first by Lovelace, 1649, hence to play to the gallery (1872)."Super altare Beatæ Mariæ in occidentali porte ejusdem ecclesiæ quæ Galilæ a vocatur." [c.1186 charter in "Durham Cathedral"] Presbyterian 1640, as name of Scottish church governed by elders (as opposed to bishops), from presbyter "an elder in a church" (1597), from L.L. presbyter "an elder," from Gk. presbyteros "an elder," also an adj. meaning "older," comparative of presbys "old," possibly originally "one who leads the cattle," from *pres- "before" + root of bous "cow." Presbytery "a part of a church reserved for the clergy" is recorded from 1412. Meaning "body of elders in the Presbyterian system" is recorded from 1578. Lateran 1297, popular name of cathedral church of St. John Lateran at Rome, which is built on the site of the palace of the Plautii Laterani, a Roman family. As a papal headquarters, it was the site of five general councils of the Western Church. sexton c.1303, sekesteyn, "person in charge of the sacred objects of a church," from O.Fr. segrestien, from M.L. sacristanus (see sacristan). Sense of "custodian of a church" first recorded 1582.
"Super altare Beatæ Mariæ in occidentali porte ejusdem ecclesiæ quæ Galilæ a vocatur." [c.1186 charter in "Durham Cathedral"]
So "church" for some has as much religious significance as "mosque" for others, and "temple" for others--or maybe the same person.
I saw a singer in a band (a good band, great bass player); the singer had a shiny cross around his neck, and I thought, "Oh....no"; but I didn't mention it, I thought about it but I thought, "He probably attaches no more significance to this object than he does to a smiley pendant:
Lots of history going on with a word like "church". I dunno, why deny your ancestors were religious? Odin has no more power over us (well, maybe there are a few); "the name that cannot be named" still has power,
Exodus 3:15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations
Moses still has power, there was an ad on the right of that page: "2008: God's final witness"
At first I thought it was an ad for a film or a TV show, but then a second take:
"<u>2008: God's final witness</u> -- Unprecedented destruction will come in 2008, leading to America's fall."
Website name: the end dot com
Could it be a spoof? I don't dare to click it! I want to say, "Can everyone just calm down a bit?
But the church, yeah, has still a bad feeling attached to it. Temple has done better (for me); I understand "shrine"; "community"; I still like "commune";
commune (n.) 1792, from Fr., "small territorial divisions set up after the Revolution," from M.Fr. commune "free city, group of citizens," from M.L. communia, orig. neut. pl. of L. communis, lit. "that which is common," from communis (see common). The Commune of Paris usurped the government during the Reign of Terror.
common 1297, from O.Fr. comun, from L. communis "in common, public, general, shared by all or many," from PIE *ko-moin-i- "held in common," compound adjective formed from *ko- "together" + *moi-n-, suffixed form of base *mei- "change, exchange" (see mutable), hence lit. "shared by all." Second element of the compound also is the source of L. munia "duties, public duties, functions," those related to munia "office." Perhaps reinforced in O.Fr. by Frank. descendant of P.Gmc. *gamainiz (cf. O.E. gemæne "common, public, general, universal"), from the P.Gmc. form of PIE *ko-moin-i- (see mean (adj.)). Used disparagingly of women and criminals since c.1300. Commons "the third estate of the English people as represented in Parliament" is from 1377. Common sense is 14c., originally the power of uniting mentally the impressions conveyed by the five physical senses, thus "ordinary understanding, without which one is foolish or insane" (L. sensus communis, Gk. koine aisthesis); meaning "good sense" is from 1726. Common pleas is 13c., from Anglo-Fr. communs plets, hearing civil actions by one subject against another as opposed to pleas of the crown. Common prayer is contrasted with private prayer.
How about "laboratory"? Lots of people find that scary. It's bombs and experiments and dangerous chemicals and crazed scientists--a big BEWARE! DANGEROUS AREA! sign
laboratory 1605, "building set apart for scientific experiments," from M.L. laboratorium "a place for labor or work," from L. laboratus, pp. of laborare "to work" (see labor). Shortened form lab first attested 1895.
heh....I love the etymology site! Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Once you've lived long enough in the US, church and anything even vaguely connected with it become truly offensive. Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
But I have to say I am profoundly offended by any limitations on the use of the words in my language. I try my best to use them in a way that will convey my intended meaning to a particular audience, but I'd rather use the richness of language than its paucity.
I also watch Bill Hicks. I want to be cognitively impaired. That doesn't mean I want religion. I want to see things differently. And as anyone who knows me will tell you, I am an atheist.
But is it your opinion or judgement that the sun will come up tomorrow? Or is this just a silly semantic argument? You can't be me, I'm taken
genius! I heard, I swear! On the holy steps of the fountain of youth, I heard Bill chuckle.
"Hi, I'm rg. I also watch Bill Hicks. I want to be cognitively impaired.
precognition "foreknowledge," 1611, from L.L. præcognitio, from L. præcognitus, pp. of præcognoscere "to foreknow," from præ + cognoscere "to know" (see notice). recognition 1473, from L. recognitionem (nom. recognitio) "act of recognizing," from recognit-, pp. stem of recognoscere "to acknowledge, know again, examine" (see recognize).
Ah, some Bill is called for! (This must be that learned response--I 'think' I am choosing to go watch some Bill Hick's clips and choose one, but in fact as soon as I see the words "Bill Hicks" I am drawn by huge neural autobhans, at the centre of which whizz six hundred and eighty miles-per-hour trains, I think I'm choosing but really....I must offer some Bill Hicks!
((youtube Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Now, the Sun could go nova, but that is very, very unlikely - again a judgment based on a vague understanding of astrophysics. Not the right conditions for that. And I could imagine that the Sun would decide to go nova just to spite us all, but that would neither a judgment nor even an opinion, a guestimate or a gut feeling but something I just pulled of my arse in a flight of anthropomorphic fancy applied to a stellar body.
I also watch Bill Hicks and no, I don't want to be cognitively impaired. We do that easily enough by default to actually want it. You'd have to be really knurd to actually want that with a good reason.
And no, it's not just a silly semantic argument.
Belief does mean something. It is the tool of the builders of systems, of the seekers of absolutes. It is the excuse of all human evils, the ever-handy absolution for those too lazy and too vain to simply say "I don't know".
It is a sickness and a sickening word, one of the vilest words in human language.
And that is a judgment. Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
;) Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
'Broad church' - note the small 'c' - is idiomatic English. It means having a wide spectrum of values and different ways of looking at the world.
It doesn't suggest the creation of a church, of a belief system, or any affiliation with religion.
'Broad church' has as much to do with religion as 'big tent' has to do with circuses in US politics.
[pause for thought]
Okay - maybe that wasn't the best example. Never mind.
Seriously - I can understand that people might be offended by the use of the word 'church', but in context it's nothing more than a widely used idiom, which atheists use regularly without implying that they're steering themselves a course back to the bosom of Jesus.
I might ask, how can anyone stay sane in what are still nominally 'Christian' societies if the mere word 'church' offends even when mentioned in a secular idiom? What does the sight of real existing cathederals, bishops, parishioners and so forth occasion?
It's a perfectly normal and inoffensive English idiom and Sven is correct to defend his right to use it.
From the link:
For me that's part of it, but cognitively impaired is having four beers with your mates. At the end of the session, I--and not just I--am cognitively impaired. I despair of ever getting rid of all those people who need to drive at night, when the streets are fully of happy cognitively impaired individuals....
My experience tells me that "sober" is a most dubious state in which to permanently reside--it seems that most moral authorities are sober, or pretend to be maybe. I'm thinking of cognitively impaired in the sense that the rational mind has been stopped in its relentless forward motion. obstacles appear, paths to the left and right--
But maybe I'm reading "impaired" skew-wiff, I'm seeing humour that maybe isn't there.
impair c.1374, earlier ampayre, apeyre (1297), from O.Fr. empeirier, from V.L. *impejorare "make worse," from L. in- "into" + L.L. pejorare "make worse," from pejor "worse." In ref. to driving under the influence of alcohol, first recorded 1951 in Canadian Eng.
But, flipping it round, a very sober person is impaired in other environments--I dunno, can you be sober and fall in love? There's an approach to sober that sounds like knurdness with all the emotions switched off...for me!
Re: belief
belief c.1175, replaced O.E. geleafa, from W.Gmc. *ga-laubon (cf. O.S. gilobo, M.Du. gelove, O.H.G. giloubo, Ger. glaube), from *galaub- "dear, esteemed." The prefix was altered on analogy of the verb. The distinction of the final consonant from that of believe developed 15c. Belief used to mean "trust in God," while faith meant "loyalty to a person based on promise or duty" (a sense preserved in keep one's faith, in good (or bad) faith and in common usage of faithful, faithless, which contain no notion of divinity). But faith, as cognate of L. fides, took on the religious sense beginning in 14c. translations, and belief had by 16c. become limited to "mental acceptance of something as true," from the religious use in the sense of "things held to be true as a matter of religious doctrine" (c.1225).
I can get a better sense of what (I think) you mean from the word "faith". Do I have faith that the sun will come up? To be honest, I don't ponder it. Never have. I mean I can ponder it, but it takes no faith for me and the sun to move through the days.
But belief as "dear, esteemed", then yes--I think it is impossible to live without belief, because to act there must be beliefs about the world. Some people believe the world has just passed a tipping point where climactic changes will do away with our current modes of living. Others believe that we may be perhaps heading in that direction, better stop our bad habits now.
And another person thinks, "What are the facts? What do we know?" But we don't know enough, maybe, and an offer comes through the door for an eco house in a place where they're growing their own food...and the person thinks, bah, hippies!
If there is no pause for thought, then I ascribe to that person the belief that we have not passed a tipping point. As none of us can know the future, but we can make ever more shrewd guesses about it, our beliefs are honed, fine tuned, so that "old" beliefs seem strange, until one examines what we did and didn't know back then, and how...way back when we ascribed personality to non-human places, events, objects....I dunno. I liked the part where "faith" went roaring ahead while belief developed with the latest knowledge.
So by Shakespeare's time it meant 'mental acceptance of something as true'
(Francois, I hope you don't mind me talking to you like this, it's not everyone's cup of tea I know!)
I just wanted to find a Shakespeare sonnet with the word belief in it, see how it sounded. So here goes:
(Well, it turned out that 'belief' doesn't appear in any of them. But as I was typing belie--"believe" turned up.
Shakespeare's sonnets. The text 101 - 154.
CIX O! never say that I was false of heart, Though absence seem'd my flame to qualify, As easy might I from my self depart As from my soul which in thy breast doth lie: That is my home of love: if I have ranged, Like him that travels, I return again; Just to the time, not with the time exchanged, So that myself bring water for my stain. Never believe though in my nature reigned, All frailties that besiege all kinds of blood, That it could so preposterously be stained, To leave for nothing all thy sum of good; For nothing this wide universe I call, Save thou, my rose, in it thou art my all.
But, flipping it round, a very sober person is impaired in other environments--I dunno, can you be sober and fall in love?
Love? Good biochemistry and its existence makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point given that us humans are just furless, clawless, long-gestating, slow-growing and generally rather meek and defense-self mammals who just happen to benefit of a handful of somewhat unusual cognitive abilities that tend to manifest themselves pretty late in life. Without love, none of us would be there to talk about it for cause of devastating infant mortality and the subsequent complete inability to survive as a specie :>
That being said, being sober about something doesn't mean you can't appreciate it... Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
