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I'm at work so I can't watch the videos til I get back but I have a question about music vs noise although it may be a little off topic here.

I was chatting to my friend about this - I can't pick out different harmonies in music, I seem to merge it all together and only hear the overall 'tune'. I assumed everyone did but my friend says he can pick out the separate harmonies and how they work together and he can't imagine how it sounds to merge them together to only one thing.  

To me, some frequencies I pick up better than others, so if there are harmonies like a choir, with people singing together, one harmony will over-ride the other to my ear and then just sounds stupidly out of tune.

So where does music - as in a pure note or a coherent assembly of notes working together, then become noise or a mess of stuff that doesn't sound right - or is that down to personal taste in music?

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2008 at 12:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not back 'till late this evening.  I'll have a go at your question then.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2008 at 02:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are different kinds of musical hearing, and they're not related to hearing issues.

The order goes:

rhythm
rough outline - this is the 'It's a nice noise' level of listening
being able to pick out lines
being able to hear all of the lines at once distinctly and/or hear the chords as chords if they're not playing individual lines (depending on what's in the music)
being able to understand the complete structure built by the different lines

People with the last skill are incredibly rare, because they have a combination of listening, memory and intuition which doesn't happen often. Mozart notoriously was supposed to be able to do this, writing out an entire piece from memory - probably not by remembering all of the notes, but by remembering enough detail and knowing enough about music to know how the elements would be put together.

Most people seem to live in the first two areas. They can maybe pick out a line if asked to, or maybe not. Trained musicians should be able to, but people without training probably wouldn't.

There are also two different kinds of pitch hearing - perfect pitch, and relative pitch. They don't work in anything like the same way. People with perfect pitch can tell you the name of a note and the key a tune is by listening to it. People with relative pitch can name the interval between two or more notes, but not what key they're in.

You can't follow lines without some relative pitch ability. But... listening is easier than labelling and you can still experience a line as music without necessarily being able to write out the notes on paper. Learning to do that takes training and effort.

I put some time into developing my listening, and I found that when I practiced naming intervals my pitch discrimination improved. I could hear more detail and also hear when things were out of tune. (Not always a good thing.)  

I have a faint ghost of perfect pitch, but it's very undeveloped.

I don't have much of a memory for structure at all.

I can't sing for toffee without a line to follow, but I can improvise easily around a structure I've learned or know already. (A lot of music uses the same few simple structures, so once you've learned  them you don't need to be able to pick them apart from scratch.)

So it's not either/or. I'd expect your friend probably put some time into training his ears or had lessons. If you did the same you'd likely move in that direction, even though you won't be hearing the same things in the same ways.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2008 at 06:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's interesting, thanks.
I don't know if my friend has had lessons (he doesn't play any instruments) but he listens to music in great detail, so I guess through doing that he's sort of trained his ears.  He introduced me to a whole range of stuff that I wouldn't have been able to appreciate without him talking me through it.

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by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 03:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My idea was to attune the ear to the bass.  First through the rendition of "Norwegian Wood", then seeing John Entwhistle--ignoring the band, concentrating on the unique sound.

My thinking is: the ear can pick up certain frequencies, and music is a way of organising them.

So bass frequencies: what are they like?

I wanted to show the bass guitar, electric and the double bass as acoustic, but there are lots of bass tones.

I can't pick out different harmonies in music

Most people (judging by sales) don't listen to music.  They listen to either the lyrics or the melodies.

The pulse behind can go pump pump pump pump, that's fine.  Listening to music involves concentration and luck--luck such that you have the correctly open ears to appreciate (for good or ill) what, acoustically, is happening.

So I'm asking: can you hear the bass?  Can you hear what its doing?  In particular, the Sonny Rollins piece.  Can you hear that Sonny is playing the sax melody, and that behind him and with him are the bass and the drums?  If you can hear that, it's just words, concentrate on the music (if you like it!)  But that's an honest question: can you hear that the sax is doing one thing and the bass is doing something else, and that they are complementing each other by making sounds that you find sonorous?  Honest question!  By sonorous I mean "soothing to the ear" such that the sounds bring you peace and calm--and other emotions--that the sounds create emotions, and the more you can individuate and the more you understand, the wider your range.  

Heh!

Hope that makes some sense!


Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2008 at 09:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to add that "range" is the same for all humans.  It means "as far as I can".  Widening the range is something that many humans enjoy, others hate, the edge is the battle ground, but where there is pleasure there is widening.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2008 at 09:28:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't make it in til late last night and need to get to work now, so this afternoon I will go through the video and see if I get the bass.  I usually feel the bass but I don't know if that means I can hear it. I will let you know!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 02:57:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If possible, listen to the two Victor Wooten pieces first; 'Norwegian Wood' to tune your ears to the bass, then the drum and bass jam to tune them to drum and bass.  Then you should hear that Sonny comes over the top of those two with his sax.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 04:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Much of white pop music (and indeed classical music) kind of hides the bass ; it is just here to provide the hoomph, but not to be listened at. As a result many people haven't trained their ears to bass lines, and simply can't hear them properly...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 04:47:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And it doesn't help that its lowest frequency component is felt rather than heard, and a challenge to most sound reproduction equipment sold these days. Many bookshelf speakers and portable devices will put out a 'hump' in the mid-bass to make up for their lack of deep bass.

You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.
by Vagulus on Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 at 09:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, that's amazing. I don't think I have ever heard the bass alone before.  It's incredible.  I always wondered why kids would learn bass guitar when they could learn the 6 string but now I see why.

Victor Wooten is awesome, how does he do that?! Bass and drums together work well for me, both with lots of space and with more rock to it.

When the third sound comes in I find it harder because the higher frequencies on sax and guitar drown out the bass for me. If I concentrate really hard I can pick out the bass and drums for a few seconds at a time - easier when the clip moves to show those instruments.

If I were in a club I would switch my hearing aid off and just feel the bass and drums and cut out the sound of the music/tune/lyrics whatever.  I guess when I just listen (I don't get to feel the bass through my body when it is just pumping into my ear through the loop but otherwise I can't really 'hear' anything) the higher frequencies are the ones I can hear better compared to the lower ones. I don't hear it all equally to be able to distinguish the different sounds. Easier to hear the bass through the sax cos there are more spaces perhaps. Sonorous for sure yeah!

But wow, thanks. What an ear opener!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 04:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Next week, the human voice!

If you like bass and drums then dub reggae from the seventies should be enjoyable.  Ceebs knows more about that than me.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Mar 20th, 2008 at 05:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the digital aid itself has a transfer function that is designed for speech and thus higher frequencies, thus artificially lowering the bass volume ; does it have a "bass boom" function ? :)

Maybe you can try to increase bass volume on your computer, see if it makes the bass line easier to follow.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 at 06:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The hearing aid is tuned to my frequency range. So I guess it ought to even things out but in reality it doesn't.

I can't see a base volume setting on here, certainly not for use watching you tube.  I can manipulate that with MP3s though and it does help.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 at 05:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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