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Great diary and comments.  I've been chewing it over to see how I can possibly add to it.  The example of giving apartments to homeless drunks does remind me of how people kick off in the UK when pregnant teenagers get bumped up the housing list, with claims of girls deliberately getting pregnant to get themselves a nice flat.  Again, there is this moral judgement on these people.  

Whether accidentally or deliberately pregnant at 16, it is frowned upon by society.  So the idea of being 'rewarded' for such disgraceful and deviant behaviour forms part of the moral framing of who is worthy of welfare services and who isn't.

As others have pointed out there are different issues and ways of framing this debate that are not being clearly distinguished from each other.  The argument around what all people should be entitled to regardless, the moral argument of who deserves such entitlement and what should happen to those who abuse the system or don't take responsibility for themselves, and then the issue of what is going to cost the state less?  

A young single mother in a secure and safe flat is cheaper than a young single mother in a hostel or B&B without adequate facilities or access to healthcare and education for her and her child. But if we want to punish her for her behaviour and abuse of the system, then let her and her child suffer for it. As if it will make any difference to her so-called moral fibre...

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 06:55:37 AM EST
What emerges from this discussion is that a lot of social policy exists simply to punish people for not conforming to cultural norms -- and that we are willing to spend huge amounts of material wealth to enforce those norms.  But there's a tension between our desire to enforce those norms (and to enjoy punishing people who defy them), and the social costs of that cruelty and controlfreakery.  And also a tension with the conflicting values of forgiveness and altruism, which are just as important to our survival as humans as the enforcement of cultural patterns.

Can we imagine a society which didn't punish anyone?  in which anyone's child was everyone's child, and there was no such thing as "illegitimate" or "undocumented"?

But then we'd have to imagine a society without patriarchy (without men's obsessive need to control female sexual and reproductive behaviour to ensure that "their" women only bear "their" children) and without nationalism (the obsessive need to control which people are allowed to live inside which imaginary lines drawn on inaccurate and irrelevant maps).  Huge steps.

Is there any relationship between draconian cultural norm-enforcement and resource scarcity?

And yet, what of the overwhelming evidence that suggests there is more charity and reciprocal-altruistic sharing among people living in relative resource poverty than in relative abundance... that is, until a certain level of bankruptcy, or the "Ik threshold" at which humane behaviour disappears entirely and survival is an individual obsession (we revert from pack animals to solitary scroungers)...

head hurts.  must get out in fresh air...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 02:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't go outside. There might be nasty men out there.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 at 02:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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