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There isn't a clear paradigm/ideology which provides a rationale for such planning and gives a clear measure of how effectively it is being carried out  - i.e. to demonstrate how much value is being added by the process

Erm... do EDF, TGV, Airbus ring a bell? Why do you think that there is such a large side-dish of French-bashing in the promotion of neoliberalism? France is the inconvenient proof that strategic behavior by the State over the long run works.

It's a pity that the French elites have been to a much too large extent brought into the fold by their neoliberal cousins, and have forgotten how to defend their model, but the model is still there, and still works. And people in France know it. And foreign investors know it.

Why do you think I spend so much time debunking the myth of declining France? Because it has direct relevance.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the paradigm/ideology would be The French modelTM?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know this site is a nest of French Technocrats, don't you?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said earlier, a few good examples is not a theory.  I could just as easily quote Alitalia or any number of inefficient state enterprises.  What IS interesting and important is why some are very good, and many are awful.  Undoubtedly the freedom from very short term, PR and personal careerist/bonus dominated decision making is a major problem with the Anglo disease management style.  However, it's not good enough just to say "the French are good at it" - you have to specify precisely which aspects of the French model are demonstrably superior, and why.

Having worked in a major, rapidly globalising, private sector company for most of my life I am all too aware of the huge structural problems with the management systems that are developing there, and yet they are of a different order and kind to those in large public sector organisations.  

The neo-lib myth of the entrepreneur entirely subject to the vagaries of the market place has about a much relevance to today's gloabalising corporations as the "log cabin to White House" myth of American Politics.  You are mistaking the ideology for the reality if you think that neo-lib economics has any great understanding of how a large corporation is actually managed.

The difficulties of managing a large global business, most of the internal components and services of which have no direct exposure to any marketplace, are not all that different in kind to managing a large state organisation, but the response has been altogether more dynamic in the private sector.  The notion that we can go back to 1940's style state bureaucracy to provide an alternative paradigm to neo-lib economics is reactionary, not progressive, and shows know understanding of the transformation in organisational systems that has taken place in the last 50 years - almost regardless of the economic sectors in which they are embedded.

(As an aside, there are many dimensions to globalisation - far and away more than just the focus on free movement of capital referred to earlier - and organisational development theory is only beginning to address them.)

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 08:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difficulties of managing a large global business, most of the internal components and services of which have no direct exposure to any marketplace, are not all that different in kind to managing a large state organisation, but the response has been altogether more dynamic in the private sector.

For example?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Example: The degree to which individual managers and organisational sub-units in the private sector are subjected to precisely articulated and measurable targets, often agreed jointly by negotiation, and monitored carefully to ensure that all expenditures are directed towards those ends.  Thus projects are subjected to rigorous cost benefit analysis and post audit to ensure the projected benefits have actually been achieved.

In my experience - even at the top end of the public service - there is huge resistance to any precise targets being set, never mind objective monitoring as to whether they have been achieved.  The notion of accountability has more to do with not rocking the boat rather than with the quality and quantity of services delivered to the general public.  The objective is often to achieve growth in budget allocation rather than improved quality and quantity of service.  

Things are changing, but very very unevenly and slowly, and there is little structural incentive for that change to take place - not least because very few Government Ministers have a clue about running a large organisation, and can be easily sidelines or hoodwinked if they ask awkward questions.  Many civil servants have nothing but contempt for their ministers and have made thwarting them into an art form. It is very easy to sabotage a politicians career if he is expected to take personal responsibility for all Departmental decisions - even those he was never properly informed about.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
precisely articulated and measurable targets

You've had a better experience of the corporate world than most people!

The problem, of course, with measurable targets is that very often the things that are important to performance, especially when profit isn't the bottom line, are difficult to measure. So you set targets by what can be measured, even if they're at best tangential to fulfilling the actual aims of the organisation.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Point accepted, and it becomes really difficult in areas like health care.  But it can be done.  The problem is that there are huge vested interests determined to stop it happening.  Funny how it is impossible to measure health care quality and  efficiencies in the public sector - but no difficulty in charging for it in the private!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In areas like health care and education, New Labour's target obsession has been demonstrably damaging.

A couple of examples come to mind. One is the charge that people have been alleged to be kept waiting in ambulances before being admitted to Accidents and Emergencies in order not to violate a government-imposed target that all patients should progress to a certain stage within 4 hours of admission. The other example is that, after focusing on the number of pupuls excluded from schools for 6 school days or longer, policies have been adopted that discourage schools from excluding pupils for that length of time (by making it a monetary cost for the school), as well as having Local Authority officials do their best to avoid long-term exclusions whether or not the underlying issues are addressed. The same thing happens with permanent exclusions: it is possible for the Local Authority to negotiate a voluntary transfer of a student from one school to another as a way to avert a permanent exclusion. The end effect, the pupil moving school, is the same as it would have otherwise been, but it doesn't show up on permanent exclusion statistics.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All of this is possible where the "customer" has no effective means of redress for any harm suffered -  a key organisational design principle for any service industry.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What it's a key organisational design principle for any service industry that the customer should have no effective means of redress?

that's cynical ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nah - its what the public sector is like now, and what needs to be changed!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, the tendency to consider people using public services as customers is just as much a problem as anything else.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Call me naïve but - the ballot ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Charging for stuff is not necessarily measuring it.

Read any analysis of private sector charging by health economists (some of Enthoven's early work will do) and you'll see that private health care does not do half of the measurement that you are ascribing to them.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny how it is impossible to measure health care quality and  efficiencies in the public sector - but no difficulty in charging for it in the private!

It's easy to set price. Cost-plus works fine for the purpose of the health care provider. Determining value, on the other hand, is a much stickier issue.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even a cost plus model requires measurement of service volumes, and an analysis of costs - and usually an analysis of costs elsewhere to determine the reasonableness of the proposed price.  I have known all of these basis metrics and comparisons to be resisted at senior levels in the public sector.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And they are resisted for good reason.

From a value perspective, cost-plus is nonsense. A simple antibiotic treatment for a lung infection saves your life. It costs - at worst - € 100 and a couple of doctor's visits.

I don't know the price tag for a major cosmetic operation, but I would be very surprised if it is less than two orders of magnitude greater.

Without going too far into the value of purely cosmetic operations, I hope that we can at least agree that curing a patient of TB is more valuable than a facelift?

Further, the comparison of costs across suppliers assume a roughly comparable product and that customers are able to shop between suppliers. In many cases this is simply an invalid frame of reference. Not only is major surgery (nevermind emergency care!) a sufficiently rare event for most people that the marketplace won't work [1], there is also the issue that many aspects of pre- and post-treatment care are not (easily) comparable across facilities.

Applying the kind of metrics that you suggest to medical care is like trying to figure out the mass of the Earth by counting the number of pebbles on a beach. It's not the right way to do it. In fact, it's not even a wrong way to do it.

And don't get me started on the moral hazard of reducing citizens to "consumers" and medical professionals to "suppliers."

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for transparency and accountability. But making up insane measurements just to measure something isn't accountability. It's accountabilityness, to Colbertize a bit.

- Jake

[1] Recall that the marketplace is only self-correcting if the burnt hand can teach - if each person breaks his leg at most once or twice during a lifetime, there is no way he can amass the level of experience with the different providers of health care to make an informed choice on his own.

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the infrastructure of the country, and its presence in vital industrial sectors. it's no accident, and it's a lot more than anectodal.

And a lot of that relied on simple things: a willingness to entrust the State with strategic planning, the attendent prestige of working for the State you're not just a bureaucrat, you're part of the elite of the country), and the ability of the government to hire the top brains in the country, via the selective Grandes Ecoles, which are specifically created to train competent administrators and engineers, and instill in them a very real sense of duty.

And it's not something from the 40s. EDF's nuclear programme was decided in the mid-70s and implemented throughout the 80s and 90s. Ditto with the TGV.

Now the people that could renew that spirit work for banks - because they're the places with money, prestige and power. Is that a good thing? Is it an irreversible one?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
Now the people that could renew that spirit work for banks - because they're the places with money, prestige and power. Is that a good thing? Is it an irreversible one?

It will happen if the pay, prospects, and prestige are better because we have lost the idealism associated with the post war project of rebuilding Europe as not just a similar collection of states to that we had before the war, but as something qualitatively different - with a strong supranational dimension, a strong social and welfare state dimension, and a strong commitment to providing an integrated economic infrastructure which can enable the private sector to flourish.

Now that idealism and endeavour, that ambition and infrastructure, must become EU and worldwide and much bolder and more ambition to transcend the "greed is good" philosophies of the Chicago school.  

We're on the same side of this debate -I'm just trying to goad you into being much more positive and offensive in your approach - instead of always playing defense against the idiocies of the neo-libs. THAT'S TOO EASY FOR YOU NOW. Populations and movements are inspired not by withering critiques of what is, but by dynamic visions of what can be.  The EU is one such exemplar, the UN, International court of Justice are others.

We need to be much bolder in confronting our leaders with the idiocies of the current conventional wisdom.  Bush/Chaney/Blair should be indicted before the courts.  Rendition flights stopped.  Sanctions applied for human rights violations whether in Gitmo or Tibet.  Mugabe ousted by UN intervention if necessary.  MBeki challenged for his complicity.  The UK told it can't join the Euro until it gets its financial services sector in order.  

In short we have to make the EU/Euro such a success that the Anglo disease will be obvious for all to see.  But we also have to tackle the idiocies of the public sector in many countries which will prevent popular acceptance of that model ever becoming more universal.    This requires that we articulate a new model of management efficiency and accountability for that sector - yes, built on the successes to date - but also learning from the failures.  Otherwise Berlusconi will keep on coming back.....

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The notion that we can go back to 1940's style state bureaucracy

Isn't that a strawman?

to provide an alternative paradigm to neo-lib economics

Didn't you just argue that we would be mistaken in thinking that neo-lib economics had anything to do with the running of a globalising corporation? So why would we need an alternative?

the transformation in organisational systems

Is there any reason why this should be exclusive to the private sector?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru was arguing that Keynesianism didn't fail, the neolibs didn't succeed, and the obviously solution was to go back to Keynesianism.  My answer is a Yes, but...  the world has changed, globalism isn't just about deregulation and free movement of capital, and that technology and scale has enabled and forced a complete transformation in how large scale economic activity is organised.  To be effective, the regulatory environment also needs to become more globalised, and infrastructural initiatives such as those instanced by Jerome need to become more global in scope - as Airbus already is.

Neo - liberalism appeals to the values of the small entrepreneur - who is often subject to fierce market disciplines and bitterly resents regulatory costs and perceived unfairness and inefficiencies.  Large global corporations give lip services to competition, but in reality are dedicated to destroying it, by fair means or foul.  They need some regulation to be able to operate and often have the power to ensure it reinforces their position and makes life difficult for new entrants or weaker rivals.  

However they have also been much more effective at playing of nation states against each other and maximising their advantage.  International regulation is a bit like  trade unionism, which offsets the weakness of an individual vis a vis a large business through collective bargaining.  It is only through a large number of states controlling access to key markets acting collectively that they have any chance of regulating global firms effectively.

There is absolutely no reason why the transformation of organisational systems should be exclusive to the private sector, and every reason why it shouldn't be.  But vested interests aren't the exclusive preserve of the private sector, and we lack an informed political culture capable of ensuring the necessary, and in this case real, reforms take place so that public sector organisations can rival the private in inefficiency and effectiveness, but with respect to a much more socially and environmentally responsible set of goals.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru was arguing that Keynesianism didn't fail, the neolibs didn't succeed, and the obviously solution was to go back to Keynesianism.  My answer is a Yes, but...  the world has changed,

And Mig and Jerome point out that Keynesianism still hasn't failed. If Keynesianism weren't viable, the economic systems that France, Denmark, Germany, Sweden and several other countries currently have could simply not exist. Thus, we can conclude that Keynes still works. Q.e.d.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All countries have a mix of public and private - the question is what is the optimum proportion, and how do you optimise the contribution of both to the public good.  As I understand it Keynes didn't factor in the cost of non-renewable externalities, neither where individual polities played off against each other by mobile capital to the degree to which that happens today.  I'm no economist, but I'm also not sure what contribution Keynes had to make to the optimisation of public sector efficiencies in meeting agreed objectives.  However the universal reference point of "the market" provides some somewhat spurious measure of that for the private sector as far as the neo-libs are concerned, and that is part of their effectiveness in public discourse.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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