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As far as I see it, we're engaging in a rhetorical provocation to see what comes of it. I doubt anyone here is knowingly complicit, but for the sake of argument what is it in our societies or in our nature that condones or leads to the generalized use of torture? What Can we be the devil's advocate? Is it enough to just oppose torture? Just how banal and ordinary is torture?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is, at what point does moral outrage become such that one is compelled to step outside the system altogether? For example, Brian Haw was most definitely not complicit in the war on Iraq, but how about the rest of us who continued going about our lives, doing our jobs, and paying our taxes?

At what point does resistance become a moral obligation?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the question, and it is a hard one.  As far as I know there is no bright line anywhere, no boolean test that we can apply to the slippery slope of national moral failure.  But surely when our chief executive confesses on national television for all the world to hear that he and the entire top echelon of our national government actively conspired to commit torture, an international war crime, surely we have crossed some undeniable threshold.  

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?
by budr on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:31:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The threshold crossed is the line between mutual knowledge and common knowledge. This can have serious consequences down the line which will seem to come out of nowhere due to the time lag, as a result of a process of "subterraneous information processing" as a result of the fact that people now know not only that the US president tortured, but that everyone knows that everyone else knows about it.
Sizing up other investors is more than a matter of psychology. New logical notions are needed as well. One of them, "common knowledge", due originally to the economist Robert Aumann, is crucial to understanding the complexity of the stock market and the importance of transparency. A bit of information is common knowledge among a group of people if all prties know it, know that the others know it, know that the others know they know it, and so on. It is much more than "mutual knowledge", which requires only that the parties know the particular bit of information, not that they be aware of others' knowledge.

As I'll discuss later, this notion of common knowledge is essential to seeing how "subterranean information processing" often underlies sudden bubbles or crashes in the markets, changes that are precipitated by nothing at all and therefore are almost impossible to foresee. -- John Allen Paulos in A Mathematician Plays the Market



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Prince Geoffrey: I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows, and Henry knows we know it.
[smiles]
Prince Geoffrey: We're a knowledgeable family.

The Lion in Winter (1968) - Memorable quotes

Just one of the many memorable quotes from a memorable movie.

Now where are we going and what's with the handbasket?

by budr on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 04:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does resistance mean?  It's to resist the terrorist threat that--playing devil's advocate--the U.S. govt. is forced to torture.  It is their moral obligation--no matter how unpleasant the task.

And thank the good lord that some people seem to enjoy that line of work--unpleasant but necessary.

I'd see it the other way: every day we are engaged in resistance actions; but those that are enjoyable for us and everyone else around us are the...most enjoyable--and they're acts of resistance as much as building up a head of frustration and then lashing out.

I understand the need to lash out, but it always seems--to me--to produce a whole heap of negative energy.

So--resistance.  I'd suggest that the first resistance is to peer pressure--to think and act like everyone else.

The next form of resistance is in ones choice of profession.  If no one chose a profession that involves picking up a gun, there'd be no more need for guns, that kind of thing--"You are implicated by the job you do"--no "I had to do it" except in extreme circumstances (and aren't they always?)

Then there's our money.  Ignoring the tax part for a moment, where we spend our money--in a chain store or in a local store, on high quality products or tat, on valuable items or on nonsense.  (There's so much money sitting around--it could be put to better use!)

Then there's social involvement: are you (am I) involved in my local community in some way, do I participate or do I just live in my box and ignore the others--

Hmmmm....

I'd say....hmmmm.....hate and blame can be laid at anyone's feet--and will presumably be repaid in kind--hence maybe a progressive reaction to so much hate and blame is to want to throw it back--or inwards (in the devil's advocate version--!)

I'd say: to the extent that I look out for myself before all others--to the extent I behave in that way I am complicit in the system that supports my selfish ways.  To the extent I participate with others--the system is there to support us--but what if I'm a nazi?  Not very bright, maybe, but I can see the system's not working for me--or my kind--and now I'm building up a head of angry steam, I've got some moral indignation going on--and then the Grand Wizard leads a meeting, but he's anguished!

"We are complicit!" he screams.  "We allowed them dirty niggers to stomp on all that we love.  We are guilty, brothers and sisters--"

And then the scene morphs to a Stop The War meeting--and the local leader is talking about their progress and she says,

"We are complicit.  We allowed those scum-sucking parasites to--"

If the idea is to goad people into action, I always prefer something more...arousing than self-flagelation.

Whack!  Whack!  We have sinned!  Forgive us!

Ah, but there's no god to ask for forgiveness..--

So--it's a rhetorical device to argue what states should be doing--and why they aren't.  And the answer is: they (we) are complicit.  Well....of course!  The powerful are always complicit in retaining their parity of power--obsessed by it--no going down the ladder, no sliding down the greasy pole--and those that do...they might be nazis or....some other terrible kind of people--

So if I have power, I have responsibility.  And if I use my power to negative ends--or if I allow my position of power to shelter me from the negative ends of another person--without protecting those who don't have my position of power to protect them--unless I offer it, in which case the power is shared--if they want it, but often they don't, human beings--complex thoughts--driven by crazy fantasies.

I just don't think adding "we" to the bunch of people who need kicking out of their bunker--adds anything, unless it's taken at the level of individual actions--so first up, your social circle, your direct human contacts; then your economic contacts, or should it be your professional contacts; and then your social contacts--back to the beginning, but a helix not a circle...--

Gah!

Okay, I think anyone who voted for Berlusconi is complicit in either their own stupidity (they don't want to be informed); or their own mendacity--or just plain confused--but how can a person be confused by Berlusconi?

That's a triple ach confusion /rant

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
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