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Two short comments that must rely on memory. I don't really bother distinguishing among pundits and editorialists in USAn media, so I can't name the guilty or cite specific sources.  

  1. Torture is not something the Republicans and their enablers adopted reluctantly by force of circumstance. They lusted after it. The faux-worldly, pseudo-realist apologies were already in the top drawers of the more viscous  elements of the punditry just waiting for a change to ooze onto the editorial pages of the Washington Post and New York Times. I suspect that protection of a certain key "ally" featured in some of the writers motivation, but that's another story.

  2. The mainstream respectable liberal opinionators, who come down four-square against torture as if it were some inexplicable (though understandable) aberration in America's history of cosmic goodness are no better. They write as if the Central and South American death squads of the 70s and 80s were not financed and supported by American government. As if their systematic use of torture was not condoned, nay encouraged. As if the torturers had not been trained American forces, and as if the School of the Americas had never existed. This stuff goes back at least to World War 2.

That's my Saturday rant.
by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 08:39:03 AM EST
PIGL:
This stuff goes back at least to World War 2.

I will get round to writing by Big torture diary but I still have in excess of 1000 pages of background to read, but most of the techniques in use, go back to the French and British colonial governments in the 1920's. and a good quantity of the patterns of usage come from the US prison service.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs, my WW2 reference was to the transportal to the  USA of members of the Nazi state security apparatus.

I am glad someone is looking into this history seriously, and I will be very interested to read your diary, once you have completed your research. I'd say I was looking forward to it, but that would be morbid and creepifying.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the morbid and creepifying nature is why the stack of books is taking so long to read.

The Nazis are a convenient scapegoat, but from my reading so far it appears that theres a convenient forgetting of our own actions before 1945.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
your findings should of course come as no surprise. I wonder if there is room to the systematic institution of rape in your analysis...as you mentioned, in a previous comment, something about the antecedents of the torture state in prisons.

"We don't torture
 we're a civilised nation"

The Au Pairs.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some things I've read say that Rape is a particularly counterproductive form of torture, Although it was employed in a widespread manner in Algeria, It was seen as a primitive form of torture in that although it made the torturer feel more empowered, it had no particular effect on the torturee in terms of extracting information.

Generally Rape isn't covered in the textbooks on torture to the extent of other methods.

Part of the Taguba report on Abu Ghraib includes comments that one of the translators raped five or six teenage boys, while a female guard took photographs. These must be in the pictures that have yet to come out from the investigation.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceebs, I was being oblique.

You had mentioned and have since elaborated upon the connection between abuses characteristic of the US prison system, past and present, and the use of torture by US authorities in occupied nations, prison camps, and like circumstances.

Rape is a form of abuse reportedly very common in US prisons. It is so much a part of expectation based on popular culture of movies and TV that it seems to constitute a broadly accepted form of extra-judicial punishment.

The tacit acceptance and even approval of prison rape in the American public seems to me related in some way to the tacit and even enthusiastic support for torture. There may even be a common base in racism, although I can't quite see what it is.

That's what I was getting at: not that rape is a form of torture used for extracting information, but that it is a form of degradation used to inflict punishment and establish or maintain dominance relations. And these are the main purpose of the institution of torture, according to some I have read. Extracting information is seldom the real purpose, which is why discussions of tortures effectiveness in that respect are moot. Torture (and rape) are very effective at their actual purpose which the instillation of terror.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One of the best cartoons of our times.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Talking Points Memo: by Joshua Micah Marshall | 05.08.04 -- 1:54AM By Josh Marshall
An uncomfortable backdrop to the Abu Ghraib story is the knowledge that various sorts of abuse are endemic throughout the American prison system. Along those lines, here's a clip from a piece in Saturday's Times by Fox Butterfield: "The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time. The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country's criminal justice system."
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France is regularly sentenced by the European Court of Huma nRights for its deadful treatment of prisoners.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose you meant to say dreadful, but deadful makes for a nice synonym to lethal, which also describes some aspects of the French jails properly.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and shameful either way.

But our current crop of leaders doesn't do shame.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 01:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has any our our crops even cared about what happens in jails

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 02:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We should not assume that we are innocent, yes. Still a lot to be improved at home.

At least there seems to be a consensus against privatisation of prisons in Europe and prison rape is not something that is almost celebrated in popular culture. And, thankfully, we have the ECHR.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 02:23:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France also waterboards people. But it's not official policy and it's in Africa so no one cares.

And no one should be surprised it happens, considering the literature they read at Saint-Cyr.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 07:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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