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OK, then let's say the hidebound thinking here is: we want recognisable liquid fuels in recognisable pumps that drivers will come back to to fill up the tank so they can use the new highways everyone knows we need.

Still and all, biofuels is something relatively new. It doesn't correspond to nuclear or coal in the career-long habits of mind of people in management or political structures. If it really was identified with hippies it probably wouldn't get much traction. That it does, I think, is due to the very considerable leverage, in the US and the EU, of the farm/agro-industry people. Who can see how, out of the hidebound thinking above, to guarantee themselves long-term comfortable subsidy streams.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 03:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you just answered the question I was meaning to ask which is what exactly is the policy goal of the EU, and what kind of advice are they seeking from their scientific advisors?

Because, at least in the decision theory, the way it works is that the politicians figure out a set of goals and then they ask the advisors how to attain those goals, and the advisors come back with a couple of alternatives and the corresponding tradeoffs. But in this case the whole thing looks very strange. The goal (10% biofuels) sounds more like a policy choice to achieve some unspecified goal, and it is not clear what question was asked of the scientific advisors.

But, of course, if the real policy goal here is the completely ass-backwards

we want recognisable liquid fuels in recognisable pumps that drivers will come back to to fill up the tank so they can use the new highways everyone knows we need.
then there's no hope of a sensible policy dialogue.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 04:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not so sure that such a goal is unreasonable. Americans are pretty aware now of the general concept of "flex-fuel" (ethanol E85) fuel, although the vast majority don't make use of it. The politicians are supporting the wrong sort of biofuel production method with huge subsidies, but that could change. IF, and it's a big IF, some other technology could product liquid fuels that are suitable for the current transportation infrastructure, then that approach might be better than trying to completely reconstruct the infrastructure (or, stop traveling so much--which is really the best solution).

For densely populated areas, and high traffic routes across less populated regions, train travel is perfectly suitable, and we need lots more of it. But for the travel conditions in much or most of the U.S., it's going to be really, really tough to provide adequate rail coverage.

Example: I want to go to Salida to Bongo Billy's for Sunday brunch. A nice little 100 mile, two hour scenic automobile trip for a sunny April day. Gas cost in new Ford F-150 at 13 MPG and $5 per gallon: $75. (Gas cost in my little Honda: $13.)

In train terms, even if there were still a train from Colorado Springs to Pueblo, and then from Pueblo to Salida, first you would have to deal with the schedule (the route goes up the scenic Royal Gorge, which means it is SLOW)--and then the ticket cost. Two people, 200 miles round trip: $???

It's a matter of, as Mr. Bush says, not changing the 'merkan way of life.

by asdf on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 07:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This strikes me as arguing whether dedicated transport corridors can reach deep into the core of the Auto-Over-All set of transport tasks in one tremendous leap.

But that is not how rail reached the position that it originally did of providing "all but last mile" transport for the vast majority of the destinations of the vast majority of Americans.

First, dedicated transport corridors are developed where they are in the strongest position in the current marketplace, especially if we start whittling away at the massive subsidies to cars and level the playing field a bit.

Then those corridors attract differential development of retail and consumer service businesses, because the dedicated transport corridor provides a differential advantage in foot traffic that does not have to be provided with parking space.

How many years down the track is it before its taken for granted that Bongo Billy's is going to be located within easy walking distance of the rail or light rail or Aerobus station?

However long it is, we know that it does not hinge on the patronage of people living 100 miles away. Wherever they are in Salinas is close to the same thing for people driving in from 100 miles away. The location decision will hinge on whether Bongo Billy's can raise their local repeat business by 5% or even more fill in what used to be fairly dead time with people who happen to be changing at that station anyway.

So the example of the decision faced by someone making a one-off Sunday day trip is not an example of a business location driver.

And in general, since the dedicated transport corridors are both more energy and more capital efficient, on a full cost basis, as social institutions they do not have to be as greedy in terms of trying to monopolize all transport tasks in sight as the automotive transport system has to be.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 11:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
asdf:
Example: I want to go to Salida to Bongo Billy's for Sunday brunch. A nice little 100 mile, two hour scenic automobile trip for a sunny April day. Gas cost in new Ford F-150 at 13 MPG and $5 per gallon: $75. (Gas cost in my little Honda: $13.)
No European would consider a 160 Km, $150 gas, trip for "Sunday brunch". At least I hope not.

Why does it have to be government policy to make such insanity possible?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:27:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who the Hell would drive 160 km just for the Hell of it? That's something you do maybe once a quarter, when you vistit those remote relatives.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who the Hell would drive 160 km just for the Hell of it?

Americans. That's how they enjoy their freedom.

Snark aside, I have to say that driving in the vast expanses of the North American continent is a very nice experience. It's just that I just wouldn't do it "to go to Sunday brunch". But driving along the Pacific Coast Highway or through the Mojave Desert between LA and the Grand Canyon, just to name a couple of long drives I've been on is quite pleasant. But it's not a day trip, at least not in my mind.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's a bit much for even my country relatives. Though they'll do round trips to get a drink that I'd consider completely insane.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How long do ceebs and TBG say they have to drive to get to the nearest supermarket?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in kilometres, it's about 95 round trip to the nearest tescos or marks and spencers,  4km too far for me to order over the internet and save by getting them to deliver

160 if I want Sainsburys.

There is a smallish co-op on a 8 km round trip, but its range is limited.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... on the internet and get it delivered to the co-op.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Delivery here tends to be a bit unreliable.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only said its what you need ... I think you'll find that its only sometimes that you get what you need.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to go to Salida to Bongo Billy's for Sunday brunch. A nice little 100 mile, two hour scenic automobile trip for a sunny April day.

Yep, now we're talking about real problems. I'm still racking my brains for an answer to this one ;)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Worth a trip!

by asdf on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Biofuels are just another example of doing things on the cheap.  If we could replace petroleum with biofuels, we could still use the same--or very similar infrastructure we have--pipelines, fuel stations, etc. and the vehicles can be cheaply converted.  In fact, the newest cars can run on anything from 100% down to 15% petroleum since the only change in the car consists of different instructions to the fuel delivery system.  HIPPIES can make a diesel engine run on used fry grease.

Long range, our ONLY choice is convert all ground-based transportation to run on electricity.  THIS isn't easy.  THIS isn't cheap.

But what I cannot understand is why so MANY people believe that we can just back and fill, and patch things together with baling wire.  There is NO virtue to being thrifty if it means the roof is falling in.  So politicians dither about "saving" bucks on the systems necessary for survival because they believe themselves responsible citizens.  And the people who actually could build the new systems sit without decent work, doing crystal meth, and fighting with the spouse.

Come the revolution, I want to see the heads of the defenders of the slumlord mentality on a few pikes somewhere.  This sort of thinking is sick.  So now we have biofuels and food riots.  What will it take to discredit these fools???

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
techno:
But what I cannot understand is why so MANY people believe that we can just back and fill, and patch things together with baling wire.  There is NO virtue to being thrifty if it means the roof is falling in.  So politicians dither about "saving" bucks on the systems necessary for survival because they believe themselves responsible citizens.  And the people who actually could build the new systems sit without decent work, doing crystal meth, and fighting with the spouse.
Amen!
Thus we are so sensible, have schooled ourselves to so close a semblant of prudent financiers, taking careful thought before we add to the 'financial' burdens of posterity by building them houses to live in, that we have no such easy escape from the sufferings of unemployment. We have to accept them as inevitable results of applying to the conduct of the State the maxims which are best calculated to 'enrich' an individual by enabling him to pile up claims to enjoyment which he does not intend to exercise at any definite time. — J M Keynes in The General Theory


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Mig

You just made my day.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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