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by autofran (autofran@mac.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:17:13 PM EST
Al Jazeera English - News - The Recipe For Food Rights

Prices of basic foods have sharply increased amid a rise in costs of commodities.

The crisis has led to riots in poor countries by people who have limited access to food.

Dr. Vandana Shiva is a physicist, ecologist, activist, editor, and author of many books. She talks to Al Jazeera about the food crisis in India, and what can be done to overcome it.

Al Jazeera: One of the causes of the huge rises in India's food prices is the soaring rate of inflation. India is experiencing its highest rate of inflation in three years. What is behind this increase?

Dr Shiva: There are a number of reasons why the prices of food commodities are rising in India. The first is related to economic policies - the policies of integrating India with global markets.

There is a huge agrarian crisis but it's not from the beginning of our freedom, it's not a leftover of feudalism. The agrarian crisis is a result of globalisation.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Economic ministers urge action on food shortages - International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: The world's economic ministers declared that shortages and skyrocketing prices for food posed a potentially greater threat to economic and political stability than the turmoil in capital markets.

The ministers, conferring Sunday in the shadow of a slumping U.S. economy that threatens to pull down other countries, turned their attention to the food crisis and called on the wealthiest countries to fulfill pledges to help prevent starvation and disorder in Asia, Africa and Latin America.

"Throughout the weekend we have heard again and again from ministers in developing countries and emerging economies that this is a priority issue," said Robert Zoellick, president of the World Bank. "We have to put our money where our mouth is now, so that we can put food into hungry mouths. It is as stark as that."

Zoellick said that almost half of the $500 million that the World Food Program recently requested in additional pledges for food aid this year had been committed but that the program would not meet a deadline of raising the money by May 1.

The World Food Program is seeking the aid, on top of nearly $3 billion already committed, because of shortfalls in food distribution resulting from higher prices.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Market fundamentalism causes famine, I gave an earlier example yesterday.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
West Wing: The Madness of Ben Bernanke - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

The dollar is in a tailspin, the trade deficit is growing and a recession is on the horizon. The American way of life is in serious danger. But the head of the Federal Reserve keeps on pumping easy credit into the system -- a crazy policy that will worsen the crisis.

AP

Ben Bernanke at the G7 meeting of central bank governors over the weekend. Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke have more in common with the big cat entertainers Siegfried & Roy than any of us can be comfortable with.

The Las Vegas magicians call themselves "Masters of the Impossible" and have been fascinating audiences for decades by getting snow-white tigers to leap through burning tires.

The legendary Federal Reserve Chairman and his successor were equally adept at fascinating their audiences -- with a policy of miraculous monetary growth that gave America one of the longest periods of economic expansion in modern times. Many saw them as "Masters of the Universe." It seemed as if the central bankers had tamed predatory capitalism with their constant interest rate cuts.

Siegfried & Roy at times seemed at one with their cats, until the day everything went out of control. A tiger bit Roy in the neck during a show and looked as though it were about to devour him alive.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Zimbabwe court rejects bid to release poll result - Africa, World - The Independent

Zimbabwe's High Court today refused to order the immediate release of delayed results from the 29 March presidential election, in a major blow to the opposition MDC.

Rejecting a Movement for Democratic Change application to force the electoral commission to release the result, Judge Tendai Uchena said: "I dismiss the case with costs."

The MDC says its leader, Morgan Tsvangirai, defeated President Robert Mugabe in the vote, ending his 28-year rule.

The MDC went to the High Court after a long delay in issuing the result by the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission (ZEC).

Judge Uchena did not explain his judgement, but said the court would make it available by tomorrow.

The ZEC opposed the MDC's application and says it is still counting and verifying the votes.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ANC: Zimbabwe is in a state of crisis : Mail & Guardian Online
Zimbabwe is in a state of crisis, the African National Congress (ANC) national working committee (NWC) said on Monday.

"The ANC regards [the ruling] Zanu-PF as an ally. However, it is concerned with the state of crisis that Zimbabwe is in and perceives this as negative for the entire Southern African Development Community [SADC] region," said spokesperson Jesse Duarte following an NWC meeting in Cape Town.

This is contrary to President Thabo Mbeki's pronouncement that the stand-off in the Southern African country does not constitute a crisis.

Duarte said the ANC accepts that Mbeki, who has been re-appointed by SADC to mediate between the Zanu-PF and the two Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) factions, "has cause to remain neutral".

Zim opposition strikers face police crackdown : Mail & Guardian Online

Zimbabwe opposition supporters face the prospect of a heavy crackdown by security forces on Tuesday if they heed a call to launch a general strike to show their disgust at long-delayed election results.

Police have been deployed throughout the country in anticipation of the strike called by Morgan Tsvangirai's opposition in a bid to pressurise the country's electoral commission (ZEC) to release presidential election results.

Tsvangirai's Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) has been accused by police of trying to cause mayhem with the strike, launched on the back of a failed court bid to force the release of the March 29 presidential poll.

National police spokesperson Wayne Bvudzijena said police had been deployed throughout the country and "those who breach the peace will be dealt with severely and firmly".

This is Zimbabwe

The first bit of news I received this morning had nothing to do with the general strike called by the opposition. It was a call from a friend: "I hope you've got news for me!" I said loudly, before he could say hullo.

"I do" he said.

I thought it would be strike related news. Instead he said a contact of his had phoned him and told him that people in the Musana Communal Lands, in the Bindura / Shamva area (Mashonaland Central), have had their hands cut off. That the pattern of beatings and burnings had taken a dramatic turn for the worse.

The open hand is the symbol of the winning opposition.

<...>

This is Zimbabwe

Update: I called my colleague in Harare. He said ... there is a report of a Kombi bus having been burnt in Warren Park, a township in Harare, and soldiers chasing people in the streets of Glen Norah, another township in Harare. Companies in the industrial sites of Harare are reporting less than 50% turnout by staff.

by Nomad on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Talking Points Memo | Israel snubs Carter, declines security help

JERUSALEM, April 14 (Reuters) - Israel's secret service declined to assist U.S. agents guarding former U.S. President Jimmy Carter during a visit in which Israeli leaders shunned him over his plans to meet Hamas, U.S. sources said on Monday.

"They're not getting support from local security," one of the sources said, on condition of anonymity.

An Israeli security source said the Shin Bet security service provided no protection to Carter during his visit to the Jewish state because no request was made.

Asked about the Israeli account, Carter's delegation, which had previously declined to comment, told Reuters in a statement: "The Carter delegation inquired with both the lead agent of the Secret Service detail (protecting Carter) and the State Department Regional Security Officer and were told unequivocally that an official request for assistance had been made."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:50:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Area C strikes fear into the heart of Palestinians as homes are destroyed | World news | The Guardian

In the end it came down to a single-page letter, written in Hebrew and Arabic and hand-delivered by an Israeli army officer who knocked at the front door. The letter spelt the imminent destruction of the whitewashed three-storey home and small, tree-lined garden that Bassam Suleiman spent so long saving for and then built with his family a decade ago.

It was a final demolition order, with instructions to evacuate the house within three days.

If Suleiman was in any doubt about the Israeli military's intentions he had only to look outside his back door where large piles of rubble and broken concrete mark the remains of the seven of his neighbours' houses that were demolished in the same way last year.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:51:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are these people thinking? That they have paid the price for whatever bad karma that they can create?

It doesn't work that way. Each olive tree destroyed, each house knocked down, each child killed, each action that causes anger and frustration in others who are weaker than they, will cost them in the future.

One would think that when a solution is causing more problems than the problem you are trying to solve, that it is time to re-evaluate the situation. This is continuous madness.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:09:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I can tell, the people currently in power in Israel can only stay in power so long as there is a hot conflict with Palestinians. A resolution is not in their interest.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. I wrote this in my blog recently (re-translating):

"Jerusalem (Reuters). The international community is worried about the crisis in the Middle East. Representatives of all major powers involved expressed fear that an outbreak of peace could be imminent, and could expand to the entire region in the worst case. Both conflict parties were apparently willing to take extreme measures in protecting their interests, and if necessary, to declare peace on each other. Radical organizations on both sides made unmistakably clear that this would endanger their very existence. "As long as we're here, there will be no peace", said a spokesperson for the..."

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 08:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People's Daily Online: Tell you a true Tibet - Ownership of Tibet

[Totalitarian Regime Alert]

Yup.  But it's still worth posting, because this is the version that one billion fellow humans get to read.  And believe.  And guess what: it may be not all wrong.

... By the Tang Dynasty (618-907), the Tibetans and Hans had, through marriage between royal families and meetings leading to alliances, cemented political and kinship ties of unity and political friendship and formed close economic and cultural relations, laying a solid foundation for the ultimate founding of a unified nation.

... In the mid-13th century, Tibet was officially incorporated into the territory of China's Yuan Dynasty. Since then, although China experienced several dynastic changes, Tibet has remained under the jurisdiction of the central government of China.

... In 1368 the Ming Dynasty replaced the Yuan Dynasty in China, and inherited the right to rule Tibet.

... When the Qing Dynasty replaced the Ming Dynasty in 1644, it further strengthened administration over Tibet.

... Upon its founding, the Republic of China declared itself a unified republic of the Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, Tibetan and other races.

... After an inspection tour in Lhasa by Wu Zhongxin, chief of the Commission for Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs, in 1940, Chiang Kai-shek, then head of the central government, approved Tibetan Regent Razheng's request to waive the lot-drawing convention, and the chairman of the national government issued an official decree conferring the title of the 14th Dalai Lama on Lhamo Toinzhub.

Excerpts from Tibet -- Its Ownership And Human Rights Situation published by Information Office of the State Council of The People's Republic of China

The word "Ownership" was obviously not a very tactful translation choice.  The title in Chinese is 西藏的主權歸屬與人權狀況, and the word "Ownership" translates the two concepts 主權 zhǔquán ("sovereignty") and 歸屬 guīshǔ ("be under the jurisdiction of").  Together they form a compound word , most likely a legal term, whose definition I cannot find, but which some google searching indicates is usually translated simply as "sovereignty" tout court, or "de jure sovereignty" (whatever that means), and it comes up often in connection with islands whose territorial control is in dispute, e.g. Taiwan, the Spratly Islands, the Falkland Islands, etc.  The term contains the notion of "returning", as the character 歸 (guī) simply means "to return" or "to revert".  屬 (shǔ) in this context means "to belong".  So, the entire term 主權歸屬 may mean "sovereignty of/over a territory that has been/should be/will be properly returned or restored to its original locus".

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Totalitarian Regime Alert]

Sorry.  I should not have joked about that.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:56:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because I've never lived under a totalitarian regime, and I imagine that it may be offensive to joke about it to those who have suffered under one.  (Maybe I am worrying too much.)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:22:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the only totalitarian regime left these days is North Korea.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about Turkmenistan?
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Ownership" translates the two concepts 主權 zhǔquán ("sovereignty") and 歸屬 guīshǔ ("be under the jurisdiction of").
Sovereignty and Suzerainty?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:37:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think what the PRC tries to do is just to deny the difference between those two concepts.

BTW, I am waiting for the PRC to officially declare Chinese sovereignity over Mongolia on the basis of

... Upon its founding, the Republic of China declared itself a unified republic of the Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, Tibetan and other races.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many Mongols living in China, so this argumentation doesn't apply.
by Sargon on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Treaty of friendship and alliance between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In any case, the independence of both Tibet and Mongolia continued not to be recognized by other powers, which continued to recognize at least the sucerainty of the Republic of China over these areas.
Again the mention of suzerainty of China over both Tibet and Mongolia.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are also many Tibetans in China proper (In the provinces Northeast and East of Tibet). But that's irrelevant. What's relevant is that the territory of today's Mongolia used to be part of the Chinese Empire for centuries (in fact more strongly integrated than isolated and autonomous Tibet), and claimed by the Chienese Republic.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and from a cursory look at the Wikipedia entry for History of Mongolia, it looks like Mongolia declared independence from China at almost exactly the same time that Tibet did:

The rulers of Khalha gathered at a meeting during a Mandala devotion ceremony for Bogdo Gegeen Jebzundamba Hutuhtu VIII (1870-1924) in July of 1911 and carried out a decision to restore the independent Mongolian statehood in the view of the nearing collapse of the Qing Dynasty. Another decision was made in November 1911 to mobilise 1000 warriors from each of the 4 aimags of Khaklha and, on the occasion of the presence of these Khalha troops in Urga, the Manchu amban in Urga Sando was deported back to Beijing. Mongolia became independent on the 1st of December of 1911.

I could have sworn I read in some article on Asia Times that the Russian Czar (or the Soviets, can't recall) came to some "understanding" with China by which China got to keep Inner Mongolia and Mongolia was allowed to reamin independent, presumably as a buffer state, but I cannot find that datum anymore (nor on the Internet in general, actually.)

Incidentally, some claim that Tibet historically stood in more or less the same relationship with China that Thailand, Vietnam, Mongolia and Korea did, raising the general question, Why of all these must Tibet accept Chinese sovereignty over it today?

Francesco Sisci in Asia Times notes:

Another issue to consider is Britain's recognition of the Chinese "suzerainty" over Tibet during the time of Emperor Qianlong. The concept of suzerainty might be weak and too undifferentiated as it is applied to political relations between Beijing and other "territories", say Korea or Siam (now Thailand), that are now "safely" out of the Chinese empire. But the English might have felt the weak and vague word fit their encroaching ambitions over the Chinese empire. The Russians were nibbling at the Qing Empire from the north; the French were established to the south in Vietnam and were aiming north; from their Indian base, the English wanted to reach the bordering Himalayan plateau. It was in the interests of all these powers to affirm, de facto or de jure, the weakness of Chinese rule over Tibet or other territories.

<...>

There might be more reasons for Vietnam - a country that has used Chinese writing for centuries, speaks a language close to southern Chinese dialects and was "conquered" during the Han Dynasty - to be considered part of China than Tibet. The latter speaks and writes a language very different from Chinese and has only more recent contacts with China proper. But recent history decided otherwise, so Tibet is within China and Vietnam is independent. Similar arguments could be made about Korea.

The case of Vietnam is of particular interest. In 1950, when China reached to Tibet and the Vietnamese border, Vietnam was held by France and encroaching there would risk war with a great power. Tibet, conversely, was without any strong protector. Great Britain, which left India in 1947 but still retained large Asian interests, could have moved in by setting up some sort of protectorate in Tibet and by providing assistance, including military assistance. It could then have placed troops on the Himalayan plateau overlooking the sprawling Chinese plains. It is understandable that newly born Maoist China wanted to avoid this situation.

"Tibet a defining issue for China"



A language is a dialect with an army and navy.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Based on Francesco Sisci remarks in "Tibet a defining issue for China" (Asia Times), the notion of "return" inherent in 歸屬 could be related to the notion of "retranslating" territories "back" to China which spiraled out of its control during the period of foreign expropriation (pun intended):

At the time, foreign diplomats (and possibly also later historians) tried to translate these Chinese political territorial claims in self-serving ways. These "translations" were very important because they could justify and legitimize all kinds of territorial encroachment on the Qing Empire.

In response to this process, at the beginning of the last century, Sun Yat-sen and his Nationalist party made claims that "retranslated" for his domestic and foreign audience the Chinese territorial position. Those claims became the landmark definition of modern China and included Tibet, Xinjiang and Mongolia.



A language is a dialect with an army and navy.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
marco:
A language is a dialect with an army and navy.
Hmm, does that mean Czech is not a language?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 01:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
A language is a dialect with an army and navy.
Hmm, does that mean Czech is not a language?

Dobrá otázka!

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 01:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama would ask his AG to "immediately review" potential of crimes in Bush White House | Philadelphia Daily News:

Tonight I had an opportunity to ask Barack Obama a question that is on the minds of many Americans, yet rarely rises to the surface in the great ruckus of the 2008 presidential race -- and that is whether an Obama administration would seek to prosecute officials of a former Bush administration on the revelations that they greenlighted torture, or for other potential crimes that took place in the White House.

Obama said that as president he would indeed ask his new Attorney General and his deputies to "immediately review the information that's already there" and determine if an inquiry is warranted -- but he also tread carefully on the issue, in line with his reputation for seeking to bridge the partisan divide. He worried that such a probe could be spun as "a partisan witch hunt." However, he said that equation changes if there was willful criminality, because "nobody is above the law."

Like Atrios, I doubt it'd ever happen, but it's nice to know it's at least kind of on the table for now.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder how Hillary would answer that question?

I'll be beyond impressed if Obama wins the nod and then follows up on this promise. But I suppose pardons will be handed out before Bush leaves, so it's an academic question - Obama can appear to make a stand without having to follow through.

Probably the best we can expect is some jail time for flunkies and minor players, an admission that 'mistakes were made' and extra money on the lecture circuit for the perps.

Jailing a former president would be historic, and I don't think Obama has the cojones for it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:08:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hillary's too busy polishing her six-shooter and setting up her duck blind for the weekend's hunt. ;)

I don't think he has cojones -- was it cojones or cajones? -- either, and, even if he did, the evidence would undoubtedly be destroyed anyway.  They're very good at rallying around to protect Junior, as we discovered during the Plame case.  I'd still like to see it talked about more.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's cajones, unless he has some unusually impressive wooden furniture.

Destruction of evidence is unlikely to be foolproof. There's so much material on the record that in a sane world there would be no question of getting a conviction.

But endless appeals would go up to the supreme court, which is packed with toadies, so making a prosecution stick would be very tough.

I still think we'll see a wave of pardons, which will make prosecution impossible.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 08:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's cajones, unless he has some unusually impressive wooden furniture.

Well, you know how those elitist Negroes on the South Side of Chicago are with their fancy IKEA furniture.  Once Michelle refused the lawn chairs in the dining room, it was all downhill....

SCOTUS is a good point.  I doubt we could get a conviction to stick with that crowd.  They'd find a technicality to throw it out on, although to their credit -- and I think John Roberts was the surprise on it -- they did, despite the toadies, rule that the Geneva Conventions applied to Gitmo, so maybe not.

Pardons would be tough, because they'd need to be charged and convicted in these things in order to receive them.  And Bush can't pardon himself, since he'd have to be impeached (or out of office) in order to be charged with a criminal offense, and so on.

It could be done.  The bigger obstacle, I think, would be a lack of spine on the Democrats' part, assisted by a press that would happily portray it as some kind of replay of the Great Purge.

One way or another, the law was clearly broken, and that needs to be hammered into the minds of voters.  And it needs to be tied in with future threats to our soldiers ("Quite literally hurting the troops!").

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 09:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pardon away all you like. I don't think pardons apply to extradition treaties, and under the Convention against torture treaty (of which the US has signed and ratified) If you've got an extradition treaty about anything, it automatically includes torture.

All we need is a foreign government thats willing to step up to bat for freedom, say one that sufficiently pissed at being used for the transport of people on rendition flights through their territory.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have one in mind?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well till Yesterday, Italy looked a good candidate. Germany might be a good one

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's hard to think of any country which would do this.

It would really have to be Yurp, but between Burlesqueoni, Sarkozy, and GodKing Blair, I can't see it happening.

Also, it would have to be done in the US to restore whatever credibility it has left. So again - not happening. Much easier to accept the pardons and let the SCOTUS simper obsequiously.

In the end it's about president-as-totem. If you attack that, you're attacking the natural order - the one where the biggest thug takes everything, and has no responsibility to anyone unless they feel like being generous.

For all the nonsense about freedom and opportunity and hope, that's America's true red beating heart, and it's going to take more than someone like Obama to change that narrative.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I  know, but let me think positive till the bastards out of office.

And I definitely agree that it would really have to be done in the states to restore any moral credibility to the US government

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
please no Hillary bashing because I'll start up with the Barry bashing and I'm quite nasty.  

something of the sort:  Obama promises this but he knows he will never have to carry through on this promise, so he's making empty promises, or lying if you prefer.   Whereas if HRC did it, it will only be taken to be spite so she loses either way.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 09:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it was so much Hillary-bashing -- although I do plenty of that, and I do so with plenty of justification, in my opinion -- as it was a pretty tame joke about the Hillary as Woodsman bit she did.  And, in any event, I hardly think it distracted from the main discussion we were having.

Besides, I had made the point, agreeing with TBG, that Obama probably didn't have the cojones to do it.  So I don't really follow the point you're making.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 09:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the point is that I rarely see the same level of criticism directed at Obama than at HRC.

And with HRC it gets so bad that I haven't visited some sites in many months and probably won't ever again.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 09:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I certainly sympathize with your feelings on sites like Daily Kos, I think it's also a matter of you not reading blogs that tend to lean more towards Clinton (MyDD, which spent a full month whining about Obama "snubbing" Clinton at the State of the Union; TalkLeft; etc) or that exist solely for the purposes of Clinton partisans (Hillaryis44).  Particularly after wading through the paranoia and general psychosis of the last one, and the pettiness of the first two, I think you'd find yourself seeing things differently.  It just happens to be the case that the bigger blogs everyone reads tend to lean towards Obama.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:01:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but given the American MSM's obsession with all things HRC, it's just too much to see the same memes repeated here.  
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:04:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not going to get sympathy from me with charges of media bias.  But for the media's obsession with the Clintons, she'd be Mike Huckabee, in my view.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
?
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:24:22 AM EST
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?

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:31:35 AM EST
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exactly!

what does that stuff about Huckabee mean?

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:42:30 AM EST
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It means that, given the state of the race, in which Clinton really can't hope to win without overturning the delegate totals with superdelegates at the convention (thus causing a civil war), it's only because of the media's obsession with the Clintons that she's still seen as relevant.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:45:36 AM EST
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I completely disagree.  She will win Penn handily and is still now very close to the leader.

If she were a man, people wouln't be speaking fo the situation in the same way I am convinced.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:39:49 AM EST
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She'll win Penn by about 10 points, I'd guess, and net about 15 delegates, putting her still about 145 pledged delegates behind Obama (who'll then perhaps beat her by much wider margins in Guam and North Carolina, and thus gain much back in delegates).  Let's call it 130 delegates, being very generous to Clinton, after May 6th.  It's just not that close when you do the math.

It's mathematics, not sexism.  I know many are convinced that we mean ol' "boys" are just beating up on the poor little woman, but that's nothing but ignorance and chutzpah.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:54:12 AM EST
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One hundred delegates off the mark doesn't make her Mike Huckabee.

And to dare challenge the leader even though she is only 100 marks off the mark doesn't make her someone with chutzpah, nor her supporters, but the people who can't accept that she is in to win are misogynists.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:57:18 AM EST
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The chutzpah is not in going on but in portraying it as "the men beating up on the woman".  It's no such thing.  And the fact that people argue it reveals more about how easily their emotions are manipulated, and how obvious it is that misandry is no less a factor in this race than misogyny, than anything else.

But that's the kind of argument people make at the Clinton-leaning blogs.

Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. - George Carlin

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:14:21 PM EST
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I disagree.  HRC has a very good chance of winning the nomination, yet she is called upon to desist. Why is that, unless it's because some people don't think she should have a chance to fight for what she wants?
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:22:42 PM EST
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I've said this before, and no doubt I'll have to say it again at some point But even though I think we've reached a point where it's becoming increasingly unlikely that Hillary can win from a purely mathematical point of view, (barring Obama being found being beaten by a group of whores dressed in KKK uniforms on his time off, or something similar) I still think she should stay in. every minute of TV time used up by the democrats is a minute that the republicans have to compete with, so they have the choice of retreating to stunt politics, throwing money at the problem, or being invisible on the national news agenda.

Whoever wins however, on the night of the last primary, the person who is behind has to come out and using every ounce of political skill and sincerity that they posses declare the other to be the winner. Say that some people on both sides have gone too far during the primary process, and have been dealt with by their respective campaigns. The primary process is now over and that he/she will be happy to do everything in their power to make sure the next president is democratic.

The important thing is to declare the others victory rather than have it declared for you, if you want to have a position going forwards that gives a chance of the ultimate job in the future.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:58:04 PM EST
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it's funny that the Dems "lost" the last presidential election because their candidate wouldn't fight back, and now that they have a fighter, they don't like HER.  If only Obama were as tough!
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:26:36 PM EST
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I think she was unlucky in managing to end up facing someone who's candidate myth can be sold as being more iconic than hers.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:39:12 PM EST
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just because men want it that way.

sorry, but she is part of the last group of people who got the vote in the USA and that seems to be an issue with many people.

Check out Joan Walsh's column last week on misogyny and HRC at www.salon.com

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM EST
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I think it slightly disingeneous to blame the whole situation on misogeny. There has to be at least a factor that it's reflexive anti-clintonish as much as anti woman.

As for the "this group got the vote last so they deserve a representative as president" argument how do you balance lack of the vote against slavery? I'm not saying one or the other is particularly worse. but if that appraoch is brought up, then how would you deal with the obvious counterclaim?


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:06:22 PM EST
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and how obvious it is that misandry is no less a factor in this race than misogyny, than anything else.

 I agree with you that there would be pressure on a male candidate to pull out, though I can also guarantee you that if the situation were reversed Obama supporters would be talking about that being racist.

But your comment here is a perfect example of the sort of oblivious sexism that Clinton supporters talk about. First of all, the only way in which 'misandry' is playing a role in this race is that women are somewhat more likely to vote for Clinton than men - but that of course cuts both ways. Secondly, if you're really going to make that argument you're also going to have to suggest that racism against whites is playing a huge role.

But that's really not the case. It is perfectly normal for a historically oppressed group to vote for one of their own and to be enthusiastic about the idea of achieving this sort of milestone in a still sexist and racist society (albeit far less than it once was). On the other hand for men to vote for someone because they're a man, or whites for the white candidate on racial grounds is something quite different. One is an expression of hope for a symbol of equality after all this time, the other of attempting to preserve inequality.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:30:14 PM EST
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Hey, as we know, Ann Coulter prefers Hillary to McCain because he's anti-torture.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:43:59 PM EST
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How stupid of McCain to ignore the single-issue pro-torture vote.

/ugh

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:12:52 PM EST
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I don't think he has cojones -- was it cojones or cajones?

You can see the proper spelling in my latest diary :-)

Cajones are these:


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 12:43:04 PM EST
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I'm sure there are people at Guantanamo experienced in using cojones as cajones

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:02:18 PM EST
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